3 ms·

I'm often surprised when posters identify themselves as "European" which encompasses such a broad range of cultures, biotypes, and ecosystems that it makes any

I'm often surprised when posters identify themselves as "European" which encompasses such a broad range of cultures, biotypes, and ecosystems that it makes any comparison of the US way vs the European way virtually impossible. That said, when looking at the reasons for fire safety in the U.S., there are many factors to consider which may or may not apply in parts of Europe -- Frequency of wildfires. They are not uncommon in my southwest corner, so fire safety is taken very seriously -- Proximity of emergency services. It can't be assumed that the local fire department is a few minutes drive away -- Building materials. Materials that are fire-proof are rarely earthquake proof. Any of these may or may not apply in any particular case but "embafflement" seems pretty extreme.

cycomanic 3y ago
> I'm often surprised when posters identify themselves as "European" which encompasses such a broad range of cultures, biotypes, and ecosystems that it makes any comparison of the US way vs the European way virtually impossible. Many people in Europe do indeed identify as European. This has become more and more prevalent as people increasingly move around in Europe. I'd also argue that you are ignoring the cultural differences in the US (e.g. New Jersey vs Utah) something which I find Europeans are often guilty of. > That said, when looking at the reasons for fire safety in the U.S., there are many factors to consider which may or may not apply in parts of Europe > -- Frequency of wildfires. They are not uncommon in my southwest corner, so fire safety is taken very seriously We are talking about multi (>4) story, multi family apartment buildings, how are wildfires relevant? > -- Proximity of emergency services. It can't be assumed that the local fire department is a few minutes drive away Again we are not talking about requirements for some cottage in the woods, these are city buildings. The whole argument is for buildings where you have space constraints. > -- Building materials. Materials that are fire-proof are rarely earthquake proof. Again I don't see the relevance, we are talking about a national building code, but only a tiny fraction of US cities are earthquake zones. The article also asserts that most Asian countries (which presumably includes Japan) have only one stairwell requirements. > Any of these may or may not apply in any particular case but "embafflement" seems pretty extreme. I actually agree if one needs to grasp for straws like these for reasons for the 2 stairwell rule, it is pretty baffling. The article actually nicely described the history and why it's outdated.
- nineplay 3y ago
  > Many people in Europe do indeed identify as European I'll admit my surprise. US has a lot of variety, still I'd have expected that residents of Anchorage and Manhattan have more more in common than residents of Iceland and Malta. > We are talking about multi (>4) story, multi family apartment buildings, how are wildfires relevant? > Again we are not talking about requirements for some cottage in the woods, these are city buildings. The whole argument is for buildings where you have space constraints. > Again I don't see the relevance, we are talking about a national building code, but only a tiny fraction of US cities are earthquake zones. The article also asserts that most Asian countries (which presumably includes Japan) have only one stairwell requirements. I think you are underestimating the population densities of US cities. I live in a major city and wildfires have burned homes a few miles from me. Residential areas are vast and fire departments are few. I'm also not sure how you can say few US cities are in earthquake zones - maybe if you squint at the numbers, but most if not all of the west coast, Alaska, and Hawaii are in earthquake zones. That's a pretty large chunk to hand-wave away.
  - thatfrenchguy 3y ago
    Multifamily are almost never built in fire-prone areas, especially on the west coast.
- jenadine 3y ago
  Regarding identifying as European, this is often in relation to something, and one can identify one selves as many things. I identify myself as an inhabitant of my city compared to someone from a neighbour city. I identify as European compared to someone from United States. I identify myself as a westerner compared to people with a completely different culture.
  - cycomanic 3y ago
    Excellent point. I would also concede to the previous commenter, that citizens of different countries in Europe have (in many aspects) larger cultural differences than citizens of different states in the US (and language is a huge factor), but there are still many commonalities as well.
baq 3y ago
The point was that Europe has all of these but no double staircases. Don’t want to comment on missing emergency services in densely built areas but hope it isn’t the case it’s so bad you need an extra flight of stairs.
alwa 3y ago
Of course, as you allude, the US is a large and diverse country too, where those features may or may not apply in a given locality. I suspect, though, that on both continents, when we’re talking about these problems with the dual staircase requirement in this context, we’re talking mainly about relatively high-density developments in space-constrained urban settings. If, as the article claims, we’ve arrived at comparable fire fatality rates under the two policy regimes, it does seem like their prevailing standards neatly capture a tradeoff: it seems like you can add safety either by socializing a fire response infrastructure capable of quicker response, or you can privatize that extra margin of safety by imposing these second staircase costs on individual developments. I’d be curious how the total costs add up, I’m almost inclined to donate to the guy’s nonprofit just to get the answer to that. I’d be curious how these changes would affect the economics of apartment blocks on huge greenfield suburban tracts, where parking requirements rather than staircase requirements seem to be the limiting factor space-wise. I’m thinking of the kind where space is cheap enough that they do surface lots rather than building parking decks into the structure. It seems like they tack exterior staircases on the edges of the building at not too much extra cost in those situations, but I suppose the floor plan implications must still come to bear.
amluto 3y ago
> -- Frequency of wildfires. They are not uncommon in my southwest corner, so fire safety is taken very seriously There is finally progress on building codes for wildfire safety (called “WUI” codes). It still has missing bits. For example, try to find a standard for a building air intake in an area subject to wildfires.
elzbardico 3y ago
Because of the European Union there's a lot more of common standards and regulations concerning things like buildings between European Countries than there are between American States. Also, a lot more stuff is codified by law or treaties instead of by business and trade associations. So, on this matter, it makes a lot of sense of speaking about the European experience.

cycomanic 3y ago

> I'm often surprised when posters identify themselves as "European" which encompasses such a broad range of cultures, biotypes, and ecosystems that it makes any comparison of the US way vs the European way virtually impossible. Many people in Europe do indeed identify as European. This has become more and more prevalent as people increasingly move around in Europe. I'd also argue that you are ignoring the cultural differences in the US (e.g. New Jersey vs Utah) something which I find Europeans are often guilty of. > That said, when looking at the reasons for fire safety in the U.S., there are many factors to consider which may or may not apply in parts of Europe > -- Frequency of wildfires. They are not uncommon in my southwest corner, so fire safety is taken very seriously We are talking about multi (>4) story, multi family apartment buildings, how are wildfires relevant? > -- Proximity of emergency services. It can't be assumed that the local fire department is a few minutes drive away Again we are not talking about requirements for some cottage in the woods, these are city buildings. The whole argument is for buildings where you have space constraints. > -- Building materials. Materials that are fire-proof are rarely earthquake proof. Again I don't see the relevance, we are talking about a national building code, but only a tiny fraction of US cities are earthquake zones. The article also asserts that most Asian countries (which presumably includes Japan) have only one stairwell requirements. > Any of these may or may not apply in any particular case but "embafflement" seems pretty extreme. I actually agree if one needs to grasp for straws like these for reasons for the 2 stairwell rule, it is pretty baffling. The article actually nicely described the history and why it's outdated.

nineplay 3y ago
> Many people in Europe do indeed identify as European I'll admit my surprise. US has a lot of variety, still I'd have expected that residents of Anchorage and Manhattan have more more in common than residents of Iceland and Malta. > We are talking about multi (>4) story, multi family apartment buildings, how are wildfires relevant? > Again we are not talking about requirements for some cottage in the woods, these are city buildings. The whole argument is for buildings where you have space constraints. > Again I don't see the relevance, we are talking about a national building code, but only a tiny fraction of US cities are earthquake zones. The article also asserts that most Asian countries (which presumably includes Japan) have only one stairwell requirements. I think you are underestimating the population densities of US cities. I live in a major city and wildfires have burned homes a few miles from me. Residential areas are vast and fire departments are few. I'm also not sure how you can say few US cities are in earthquake zones - maybe if you squint at the numbers, but most if not all of the west coast, Alaska, and Hawaii are in earthquake zones. That's a pretty large chunk to hand-wave away.
- thatfrenchguy 3y ago
  Multifamily are almost never built in fire-prone areas, especially on the west coast.
jenadine 3y ago
Regarding identifying as European, this is often in relation to something, and one can identify one selves as many things. I identify myself as an inhabitant of my city compared to someone from a neighbour city. I identify as European compared to someone from United States. I identify myself as a westerner compared to people with a completely different culture.
- cycomanic 3y ago
  Excellent point. I would also concede to the previous commenter, that citizens of different countries in Europe have (in many aspects) larger cultural differences than citizens of different states in the US (and language is a huge factor), but there are still many commonalities as well.

baq 3y ago

The point was that Europe has all of these but no double staircases. Don’t want to comment on missing emergency services in densely built areas but hope it isn’t the case it’s so bad you need an extra flight of stairs.

alwa 3y ago

Of course, as you allude, the US is a large and diverse country too, where those features may or may not apply in a given locality. I suspect, though, that on both continents, when we’re talking about these problems with the dual staircase requirement in this context, we’re talking mainly about relatively high-density developments in space-constrained urban settings. If, as the article claims, we’ve arrived at comparable fire fatality rates under the two policy regimes, it does seem like their prevailing standards neatly capture a tradeoff: it seems like you can add safety either by socializing a fire response infrastructure capable of quicker response, or you can privatize that extra margin of safety by imposing these second staircase costs on individual developments. I’d be curious how the total costs add up, I’m almost inclined to donate to the guy’s nonprofit just to get the answer to that. I’d be curious how these changes would affect the economics of apartment blocks on huge greenfield suburban tracts, where parking requirements rather than staircase requirements seem to be the limiting factor space-wise. I’m thinking of the kind where space is cheap enough that they do surface lots rather than building parking decks into the structure. It seems like they tack exterior staircases on the edges of the building at not too much extra cost in those situations, but I suppose the floor plan implications must still come to bear.

amluto 3y ago

> -- Frequency of wildfires. They are not uncommon in my southwest corner, so fire safety is taken very seriously There is finally progress on building codes for wildfire safety (called “WUI” codes). It still has missing bits. For example, try to find a standard for a building air intake in an area subject to wildfires.

elzbardico 3y ago

Because of the European Union there's a lot more of common standards and regulations concerning things like buildings between European Countries than there are between American States. Also, a lot more stuff is codified by law or treaties instead of by business and trade associations. So, on this matter, it makes a lot of sense of speaking about the European experience.