4 ms·

In Cantonese pronunciation ru often becomes jyu (in Jyutping), ri becomes jat, similarly for rang, rong, ran. I guess this same shift is likely reflected in man

• thaumasiotes 3y ago
  I didn't mean to ask about how the same character is read in different varieties of Chinese. I meant to ask about how different people pronounce Mandarin. For example, here's a video of a popular karaoke streamer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTJIthWk_KA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTJIthWk_KA . She is singing in Mandarin. But she seems to have some trouble distinguishing r- from y-. To my nonnative ear, when she sings renbuzhu the r- is fairly clear, but her rang uses more of an intermediate sound, and in one case the palatalization is so heavy that I just hear yang. On the other hand, where the Mandarin calls for y-, I don't notice that she inserts an r- quality. This is the phenomenon that I'd like to know more about. More generally, I'm interested in how some pinyin spelling choices that do not seem intuitive from the outside were made. Consider yi / sun / diu / yan. Anyone who approaches these syllables assuming that the letters in their spelling should have the same values that they do in other pinyin syllables is going to get a shock. ("Shouldn't yan rhyme with tan?") But the spellings must have made sense to the committee that fixed them... right?
  • ximeng 3y ago
    When people pronounce mandarin they often pronounce differently depending on their local dialects, which is why I brought up Cantonese/hokkien. In turn these often derive from older variants of chinese. It seems like there has been some kind of shift from ngxxx in Middle Chinese to yxxx in Cantonese and to rxxx in mandarin, but only for some vowel sounds now represented by y… in mandarin, which is why we don’t see the y to r shift for other vowels. Just guessing here, definitely not an expert. The pinyin spellings are confusing, and I’m not sure the history of why they were chosen exactly like that. It definitely makes it hard to learn the pronunciations.
    • thaumasiotes 3y ago
      > It seems like there has been some kind of shift from ngxxx in Middle Chinese to yxxx in Cantonese and to rxxx in mandarin, but only for some vowel sounds now represented by y… in mandarin, which is why we don’t see the y to r shift for other vowels. I think this is a fundamentally different kind of phenomenon. Historical sound changes that occurred between Middle Chinese and the present can explain why the same word is pronounced differently in different varieties of Chinese. But they can't explain why or how certain people perceive different sounds to be equivalent. Consider a non-Chinese example - the letter Y in the English words yard and day derives from an original G. (There was also a G at the end of the word I, and it changed in the same way, but this is not reflected by a letter Y in the modern spelling of I.) But the historical sound change does not mean that modern English speakers have trouble telling the difference between the sound of a Y and the sound of a G. They don't. All modern speakers will effortlessly maintain the distinction between yard and guard or gird, and between yes and guess, just like they maintain the distinctions between big and bee or bag and bay. If you suggested to them that any such pair of words might sound similar to each other, they'd give you funny looks. I'm interested in the ability of speakers to produce and perceive differences between different sounds, not in the different evolution of one sound as it develops along different historical paths. (Well, not here. I am interested in the historical development of the sound as a more general matter, but it's not what I was asking about.) I was hoping that a fuller understanding of the identification of r- and y- in certain Chinese regions might help explain why certain pinyin syllables are spelled with an initial letter Y. For example, I have been saying that "yue" represents the combination of a final -üe with a zero initial, and this is indeed the official definition, but there's a bit more to it than that - I knew a Cantonese girl for whom the Mandarin words 肉 and 月 began with the same sound. That's easy to explain if "yue" really does have an initial y-; it's much harder to explain if "yue" has no initial consonant.