7 ms·

Maybe he wants to learn, or maybe he's a psychopath trying to upgrade his human emulation software so he can get out sooner. Even experts find it hard to tell.

skjoldr 3y ago
Psychopaths are still people even if their brains are broken. It is indeed hard to integrate them into society, especially if their family did a bad job of it in their childhood.
- hnbad 3y ago
  In a better country he'd be in therapy rather than in prison. Alas the US legal system only exists to detain people, not to allow them to become unbroken. I wholly believe psychopaths can be redeemed and live a fulfilling life without hurting anyone if given the proper support and guidance. I don't for a second believe the US legal system is equipped to do that, especially the prison system.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    He'd be in prison and receiving therapy.
    - hnbad 3y ago
      Closed institutions are a thing. You can be in therapy under close supervision and unable to leave until it is safe to allow you to do so. Arguably that is better than therapy in prison because even with trained staff on site a prison is still a prison. You could say that closed institutions are functionally a form of prisons and you'd be right but the difference in motivations matters: mental institutions exist to provide mental support, prisons exist to lock people away.
  - flatt 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hnbad 3y ago
      I don't live in the US but as far as I'm aware they shot a guy who tried to set fire to a bunch of empty ICE vans so direct action against institutions you don't like doesn't seem to be a winning strategy if you're not enough people to stage an armed insurrection. I'm interested if this really is your approach for "being the change you want in the world" though. When you think something could be improved somewhat do you play out an elaborate cargo cult interpretation of what you think would work better despite having no resource or professional qualification to pull it off? How has that been going for you? It's not like there aren't any organisations you could get involved with to advocate for reforms to the US legal system. You don't even have to go whole hog and try to start at the top, a lot of the underlying structures are cultural. If you're a parent, trying to treat your child as a dependent human rather than an inferior (i.e. care, not control) would be a start to building a healthier society where carcareal punishment doesn't feel like the obvious solution to societal problems. But if making assumptions about strangers and mocking them for saying things could be improved somewhat is what makes your life more bearable, nothing I can say or do will change that. I hope you find what you are missing.
      - flatt 3y ago
        No, you don't understand. I don't really care about your politics, I care about the ridiculously extreme risk your toxic optimism causes society without there being an ounce of data to support your position. You are asserting that people without a conscience and a proven violent criminal past belong back in general society after some hypothetical rehabilitation program. Further, you are asserting that it is the US prison system (and by extension, the US itself), that is somehow failing these supposedly misunderstood people. The reality is that there is no fixing a lack of conscience and giving these people social skills training only gives them more tools to exploit people by. Literally every mental health professional will tell you that. Those that deviate from this position have a strong tendency to end up strangled in a ditch somewhere with their underwear around their ankles. That is why I tell you to shelve your virtue signaling until you actually understand what you're advocating. You want these people out of prison and moved right next door to me and my family. I merely want you, since you've made it personal, to try dealing with them first... ideally firsthand. Barring that, maybe look into the reality of the situation first. The good news is that if you do manage to fix them, there's a Nobel prize waiting for you and you will be remembered as the greatest psychological mind in history.
varelse 3y ago
[dead]
kstrauser 3y ago
Philosophical question: if "fake it 'til you make it" allowed someone to emulate a human (I like your phrasing here) well enough that they, indeed, act like a human... isn't that good enough? The biblical advice to "judge not, that ye be not judged" seems relevant here. It's pretty obvious to me that it refers to a person's heart, that is, their internal desires and motivations that no one but them can truly know. If that motivation leads to a person acting the way I'd like them to, and they claim it's for reasons I agree with, and I'm not on the parole board or one of their family members where I have a need to look deeper, then fine.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It would if you would be sure that they'd never break out of character. But that's a tricky question: if someone who has already murdered someone in cold blood with substantial premeditation presents a changed exterior do you perceive the chances of them doing that as premeditation as well as larger than the chances that they've really changed? I'm happy I'm not on that parole board, and I hope they have budget for a good psychological evaluation.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    Yeah, you and me both. I acknowledge it's a lot easier for me to wax philosophical about some person I don't know, safely far away in prison, and with almost zero chance our lives will ever cross. If he were my son-in-law, or dad, or neighbor, the issues would be way more complicated.
  - account42 3y ago
    > with substantial premeditation You really need to come up with actual evidence for that if you keep repeating it everywhere.

skjoldr 3y ago

Psychopaths are still people even if their brains are broken. It is indeed hard to integrate them into society, especially if their family did a bad job of it in their childhood.

hnbad 3y ago
In a better country he'd be in therapy rather than in prison. Alas the US legal system only exists to detain people, not to allow them to become unbroken. I wholly believe psychopaths can be redeemed and live a fulfilling life without hurting anyone if given the proper support and guidance. I don't for a second believe the US legal system is equipped to do that, especially the prison system.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  He'd be in prison and receiving therapy.
  - hnbad 3y ago
    Closed institutions are a thing. You can be in therapy under close supervision and unable to leave until it is safe to allow you to do so. Arguably that is better than therapy in prison because even with trained staff on site a prison is still a prison. You could say that closed institutions are functionally a form of prisons and you'd be right but the difference in motivations matters: mental institutions exist to provide mental support, prisons exist to lock people away.
- flatt 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - hnbad 3y ago
    I don't live in the US but as far as I'm aware they shot a guy who tried to set fire to a bunch of empty ICE vans so direct action against institutions you don't like doesn't seem to be a winning strategy if you're not enough people to stage an armed insurrection. I'm interested if this really is your approach for "being the change you want in the world" though. When you think something could be improved somewhat do you play out an elaborate cargo cult interpretation of what you think would work better despite having no resource or professional qualification to pull it off? How has that been going for you? It's not like there aren't any organisations you could get involved with to advocate for reforms to the US legal system. You don't even have to go whole hog and try to start at the top, a lot of the underlying structures are cultural. If you're a parent, trying to treat your child as a dependent human rather than an inferior (i.e. care, not control) would be a start to building a healthier society where carcareal punishment doesn't feel like the obvious solution to societal problems. But if making assumptions about strangers and mocking them for saying things could be improved somewhat is what makes your life more bearable, nothing I can say or do will change that. I hope you find what you are missing.
    - flatt 3y ago
      No, you don't understand. I don't really care about your politics, I care about the ridiculously extreme risk your toxic optimism causes society without there being an ounce of data to support your position. You are asserting that people without a conscience and a proven violent criminal past belong back in general society after some hypothetical rehabilitation program. Further, you are asserting that it is the US prison system (and by extension, the US itself), that is somehow failing these supposedly misunderstood people. The reality is that there is no fixing a lack of conscience and giving these people social skills training only gives them more tools to exploit people by. Literally every mental health professional will tell you that. Those that deviate from this position have a strong tendency to end up strangled in a ditch somewhere with their underwear around their ankles. That is why I tell you to shelve your virtue signaling until you actually understand what you're advocating. You want these people out of prison and moved right next door to me and my family. I merely want you, since you've made it personal, to try dealing with them first... ideally firsthand. Barring that, maybe look into the reality of the situation first. The good news is that if you do manage to fix them, there's a Nobel prize waiting for you and you will be remembered as the greatest psychological mind in history.

varelse 3y ago

[dead]

kstrauser 3y ago

Philosophical question: if "fake it 'til you make it" allowed someone to emulate a human (I like your phrasing here) well enough that they, indeed, act like a human... isn't that good enough? The biblical advice to "judge not, that ye be not judged" seems relevant here. It's pretty obvious to me that it refers to a person's heart, that is, their internal desires and motivations that no one but them can truly know. If that motivation leads to a person acting the way I'd like them to, and they claim it's for reasons I agree with, and I'm not on the parole board or one of their family members where I have a need to look deeper, then fine.

jacquesm 3y ago
It would if you would be sure that they'd never break out of character. But that's a tricky question: if someone who has already murdered someone in cold blood with substantial premeditation presents a changed exterior do you perceive the chances of them doing that as premeditation as well as larger than the chances that they've really changed? I'm happy I'm not on that parole board, and I hope they have budget for a good psychological evaluation.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Yeah, you and me both. I acknowledge it's a lot easier for me to wax philosophical about some person I don't know, safely far away in prison, and with almost zero chance our lives will ever cross. If he were my son-in-law, or dad, or neighbor, the issues would be way more complicated.
- account42 3y ago
  > with substantial premeditation You really need to come up with actual evidence for that if you keep repeating it everywhere.