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This isn't some crackpot theory you have the burden of debunking, it's well known that EV batteries do not last. Browse autotrader.co.uk for EVs and you will se

by tomxor 3y ago

This isn't some crackpot theory you have the burden of debunking, it's well known that EV batteries do not last. Browse autotrader.co.uk for EVs and you will see almost everything around 10yr has a severely deflated range and limited future, that's why some end up being sold at absurdly low prices - because without an entire new battery it's effectively become a milk float. I'm not saying that is inevitable, but the evidence from simply browsing the second hand market for EVs show that's it's current state. I want to get on the EV bandwagon, but it's not economical enough yet, I understand that's probably not true for most of the HN crowd.

thebruce87m 3y ago
> it's well known that EV batteries do not last. Sure, some people say this and others spread it. I’m sure there are a bunch of older leafs and Zoes on Autotrader with no thermal management. Meanwhile, let’s look at what happens when you do batteries properly: > By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity. https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d... And they will be on NMC batteries. LFP batteries will last longer: > A key advantage of LFP is its longer life cycle, resulting in less degradation concerns. LFP packs are capable of more than 3000 full recharge cycle counts compared to NMC at around 1000 to 2000 cycles. https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-in-electric-cars https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-i...
- CraigJPerry 3y ago
  Which is fine but it doesn't change the fact that: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401185680084 https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401185680084 exists. That's a clean condition 12 year old, 2 owner car with only 37k miles on the clock. Listed for only £3500. The downside is it has a 100% to 0% range of 50 miles and in real world usage more like 35-ish in good weather. A quick google suggests 15 mile range is not unrealistic in cold weather with heater turned OFF. What use is that car to the general public? This isn't a fast charging car, after you do your grocery shop you need to plug that back in for 10+ hours.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    Nissan are notorious for bad battery management. As I already said, you will find an abundance of Leafs and Zoes on autotrader with poor ranges. But, did they have poor ranges to begin with? The model you picked has a 24kWh battery which is pretty small. Let’s look at what it was originally: https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1019/Nissan-Leaf-24-kWh https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1019/Nissan-Leaf-24-kWh > Real Range: between 55 - 125 mi Let’s call that 90. So not great to begin with. I would never have bought a Zoe or Leaf and I still wouldn’t. But my coworker had one exactly like this as a runaround. He recently traded it in… for another leaf. So clearly ok for some people.
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    With that capacity it will charge in less than 2 hours. It plenty enough for a secondary runaround car. Can save you tons of money depending your pattern of use.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - CraigJPerry 3y ago
      8h on 7kw wall box (car limited to using up to 3.3kw), 11h on 3 pin uk plug. There is a chademo fast charger socket on some models but not clear if this is present on these 24kwh models?
      - dzhiurgis 3y ago
        Ok 3.3kw is wild. I assumed OP was claiming some wild battery degradation. 50% is not uncommon on these early leafs so at 12 kWh it would take 4 hrs.
- tomxor 3y ago
  > Meanwhile, let’s look at what happens when you do batteries properly: > > By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity. > https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d... Yeah, a Tesla... I can only have one if I'm fiscally irresponsible or rich. Everything can be "done right" for enough money, but not done for everyone, EVs need to be for everyone. A Tesla can't compete with the economy of a 3k 2004 ICE car where you don't even have to think about range.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    > A Tesla can't compete with the economy of a 3k 2004 ICE car where you don't even have to think about range. I used to think about the range of my diesel regularly since eventually I would need to visit a petrol station. My EV is fully charged every morning and does every journey I’d need to do in a normal day. I think about its range less than my old diesel. As for fiscal responsibility, the EV costs 3p/mile to run.

by tomxor 3y ago

thebruce87m 3y ago

> it's well known that EV batteries do not last. Sure, some people say this and others spread it. I’m sure there are a bunch of older leafs and Zoes on Autotrader with no thermal management. Meanwhile, let’s look at what happens when you do batteries properly: > By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity. https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d... And they will be on NMC batteries. LFP batteries will last longer: > A key advantage of LFP is its longer life cycle, resulting in less degradation concerns. LFP packs are capable of more than 3000 full recharge cycle counts compared to NMC at around 1000 to 2000 cycles. https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-in-electric-cars https://zecar.com/resources/what-are-lfp-nmc-nca-batteries-i...

CraigJPerry 3y ago
Which is fine but it doesn't change the fact that: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401185680084 https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202401185680084 exists. That's a clean condition 12 year old, 2 owner car with only 37k miles on the clock. Listed for only £3500. The downside is it has a 100% to 0% range of 50 miles and in real world usage more like 35-ish in good weather. A quick google suggests 15 mile range is not unrealistic in cold weather with heater turned OFF. What use is that car to the general public? This isn't a fast charging car, after you do your grocery shop you need to plug that back in for 10+ hours.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Nissan are notorious for bad battery management. As I already said, you will find an abundance of Leafs and Zoes on autotrader with poor ranges. But, did they have poor ranges to begin with? The model you picked has a 24kWh battery which is pretty small. Let’s look at what it was originally: https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1019/Nissan-Leaf-24-kWh https://ev-database.org/uk/car/1019/Nissan-Leaf-24-kWh > Real Range: between 55 - 125 mi Let’s call that 90. So not great to begin with. I would never have bought a Zoe or Leaf and I still wouldn’t. But my coworker had one exactly like this as a runaround. He recently traded it in… for another leaf. So clearly ok for some people.
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  With that capacity it will charge in less than 2 hours. It plenty enough for a secondary runaround car. Can save you tons of money depending your pattern of use.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - CraigJPerry 3y ago
    8h on 7kw wall box (car limited to using up to 3.3kw), 11h on 3 pin uk plug. There is a chademo fast charger socket on some models but not clear if this is present on these 24kwh models?
    - dzhiurgis 3y ago
      Ok 3.3kw is wild. I assumed OP was claiming some wild battery degradation. 50% is not uncommon on these early leafs so at 12 kWh it would take 4 hrs.
tomxor 3y ago
> Meanwhile, let’s look at what happens when you do batteries properly: > > By ten years of age, cars were down to 82.5% of the original capacity. > https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-d... Yeah, a Tesla... I can only have one if I'm fiscally irresponsible or rich. Everything can be "done right" for enough money, but not done for everyone, EVs need to be for everyone. A Tesla can't compete with the economy of a 3k 2004 ICE car where you don't even have to think about range.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  > A Tesla can't compete with the economy of a 3k 2004 ICE car where you don't even have to think about range. I used to think about the range of my diesel regularly since eventually I would need to visit a petrol station. My EV is fully charged every morning and does every journey I’d need to do in a normal day. I think about its range less than my old diesel. As for fiscal responsibility, the EV costs 3p/mile to run.