4 ms·

Why should prisons be about punishment rather than rehabilitation?

by vimax 3y ago

atemerev 3y ago
“Rehabilitation” means that a person is suffering from some condition, and they are not personally at fault for their crimes. While there is some partial truth in this point of view, taking it at 100% face value is unfair, to say the least. People can be actually guilty of something.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Hard disagree. Rehabilitation means you take something that wasn’t working and you fix it so it can be useful again. Most convicts will eventually be released. In an ideal world, each of them will have learned how to participate in decent society so that they can be a good neighbor, employee, boss, friend, or whatever. I’m not saying that from a bleeding heart “prison should be a resort campout!” strawman perspective, but as someone who wishes people came out of prison kinder and more sociable than they went in.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    This is all conditional on the prison system of a country being a retributive or rehabilitation oriented element. The USA strongly leans towards retribution.
- thfuran 3y ago
  Even if it did mean that, so what? Shouldn't the goal of public policy be to benefit society? What's more likely to benefit society: Sticking people in big expensive torture boxes or trying to cause people to not do things that convince a bunch of other people that they deserve to be stuck in big expensive torture boxes?
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  'Rehabilitation" means a few different things, depending on context. In the context of penology it means "giving a prisoner a way to integrate back into society and reduce their chances of recidivism". This is not only useful for the prisoner, but useful for society, since most prisoners are eventually released. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_(penology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_(penology)
- vimax 3y ago
  Okay, if someone cannot be "rehabilitated" where is the value to society or to that person in punishing them to make them suffer more on top of separating them from the public?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    This is a very hard subject and mountains of paper have been produced debating it without any clear resolution in sight. I don't think a HN discussion is going to resolve it one way or the other.
  - williamstein 3y ago
    One of many possible values to society is that punishment reduces the motivation of vigilantes. For example if person A killed person B’s child, then person B (or a mob encourage by B) might be less motivated to seek vigilante punishment if there is some chance that a legal system could punish person A instead.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    The value is delivering justice and deterring would be criminals
mardifoufs 3y ago
There's a difference between rehabilitation and giving people access to the internet when serving a sentence for killing your wife and tormenting her family for like, 2 years because you hid the body even though everyone knew you killed her. Also, why shouldn't it be a little bit of both?
- blagie 3y ago
  I don't have strong feelings about general internet access, but right now, I am probably spending $200k / year in tax dollars to keep him locked up behind bars. I'd be getting my money's worth. I would much rather he be contributing to free software from behind bars. That's true more generally too. A plumber behind bars should be allowed to plumb. A carpenter to carpent. Why shouldn't people in prison contribute back, if willing and able?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > I am probably spending $200k / year in tax dollars to keep him locked up behind bars. At most you are spending $200K divided by the total amount of tax levied multiplied by your share of that total. Probably less than $1.
    - blagie 3y ago
      I grant you a trophy for your extreme talent for reading too literally, and then stating the obvious. Here: U+1F3C6
to11mtm 3y ago
They should be about rehabilitation. That said, I think at least part of it is related to risk to the outside population. i.e. Inmates performing illegal activity or otherwise directing people on the outside to do so. Yes, You can do that with phones and visits as well, however those are a bit easier to monitor.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
annoyingnoob 3y ago
It is some of both. Hans murdered his wife, tried to cover it up, and lied about it. His actions make him a danger to society, part of his incarceration relates to the danger he poses to society. While he is removed from society he should also be rehabilitated.
runlevel1 3y ago
You'll find lots of variations of the following: The Purposes of Punishment:[^1] - Incapacitation: prevents crime by removing a defendant from society. - Rehabilitation: prevents crime by altering a defendant’s behavior. - Retribution: prevents crime by giving victims or society a feeling of avengement. - Restitution: prevents crime by punishing the defendant financially. - Deterrence: Specific deterrence prevents crime by frightening an individual defendant with punishment. General deterrence prevents crime by frightening the public with the punishment of an individual defendant. [^1]: https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purposes-of-punishment/ https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...
dilyevsky 3y ago
It’s supposed to be both. There’s three components actually: punitive, deterrence and rehabilitation
- account42 3y ago
  Aren't you forgetting the most important reason for locking people up: protecting the rest of society.
HideousKojima 3y ago
Because human beings feel it is appropriate and fair to punish people for wrongdoing, and without the state handling it individuals are more likely to take justice into their own hands. Making the criminal justice system sufficiently punishing is one of several checks against vigilantism.
mdip 3y ago
I believe you'll find a lot of people here in the US that believe prison, at least for the worst crimes, isn't about punishment or rehabilitation, but "containment".

Why should prisons be about punishment rather than rehabilitation?

by vimax 3y ago

Why should prisons be about punishment rather than rehabilitation?

“Rehabilitation” means that a person is suffering from some condition, and they are not personally at fault for their crimes. While there is some partial truth in this point of view, taking it at 100% face value is unfair, to say the least. People can be actually guilty of something.

kstrauser 3y ago
Hard disagree. Rehabilitation means you take something that wasn’t working and you fix it so it can be useful again. Most convicts will eventually be released. In an ideal world, each of them will have learned how to participate in decent society so that they can be a good neighbor, employee, boss, friend, or whatever. I’m not saying that from a bleeding heart “prison should be a resort campout!” strawman perspective, but as someone who wishes people came out of prison kinder and more sociable than they went in.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  This is all conditional on the prison system of a country being a retributive or rehabilitation oriented element. The USA strongly leans towards retribution.
thfuran 3y ago
Even if it did mean that, so what? Shouldn't the goal of public policy be to benefit society? What's more likely to benefit society: Sticking people in big expensive torture boxes or trying to cause people to not do things that convince a bunch of other people that they deserve to be stuck in big expensive torture boxes?
Eisenstein 3y ago
'Rehabilitation" means a few different things, depending on context. In the context of penology it means "giving a prisoner a way to integrate back into society and reduce their chances of recidivism". This is not only useful for the prisoner, but useful for society, since most prisoners are eventually released. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_(penology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rehabilitation_(penology)
vimax 3y ago
Okay, if someone cannot be "rehabilitated" where is the value to society or to that person in punishing them to make them suffer more on top of separating them from the public?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  This is a very hard subject and mountains of paper have been produced debating it without any clear resolution in sight. I don't think a HN discussion is going to resolve it one way or the other.
- williamstein 3y ago
  One of many possible values to society is that punishment reduces the motivation of vigilantes. For example if person A killed person B’s child, then person B (or a mob encourage by B) might be less motivated to seek vigilante punishment if there is some chance that a legal system could punish person A instead.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  The value is delivering justice and deterring would be criminals

mardifoufs 3y ago

There's a difference between rehabilitation and giving people access to the internet when serving a sentence for killing your wife and tormenting her family for like, 2 years because you hid the body even though everyone knew you killed her. Also, why shouldn't it be a little bit of both?

blagie 3y ago
I don't have strong feelings about general internet access, but right now, I am probably spending $200k / year in tax dollars to keep him locked up behind bars. I'd be getting my money's worth. I would much rather he be contributing to free software from behind bars. That's true more generally too. A plumber behind bars should be allowed to plumb. A carpenter to carpent. Why shouldn't people in prison contribute back, if willing and able?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > I am probably spending $200k / year in tax dollars to keep him locked up behind bars. At most you are spending $200K divided by the total amount of tax levied multiplied by your share of that total. Probably less than $1.
  - blagie 3y ago
    I grant you a trophy for your extreme talent for reading too literally, and then stating the obvious. Here: U+1F3C6

to11mtm 3y ago

They should be about rehabilitation. That said, I think at least part of it is related to risk to the outside population. i.e. Inmates performing illegal activity or otherwise directing people on the outside to do so. Yes, You can do that with phones and visits as well, however those are a bit easier to monitor.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

annoyingnoob 3y ago

It is some of both. Hans murdered his wife, tried to cover it up, and lied about it. His actions make him a danger to society, part of his incarceration relates to the danger he poses to society. While he is removed from society he should also be rehabilitated.

runlevel1 3y ago

You'll find lots of variations of the following: The Purposes of Punishment:[^1] - Incapacitation: prevents crime by removing a defendant from society. - Rehabilitation: prevents crime by altering a defendant’s behavior. - Retribution: prevents crime by giving victims or society a feeling of avengement. - Restitution: prevents crime by punishing the defendant financially. - Deterrence: Specific deterrence prevents crime by frightening an individual defendant with punishment. General deterrence prevents crime by frightening the public with the punishment of an individual defendant. [^1]: https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purposes-of-punishment/ https://open.lib.umn.edu/criminallaw/chapter/1-5-the-purpose...

dilyevsky 3y ago

It’s supposed to be both. There’s three components actually: punitive, deterrence and rehabilitation

account42 3y ago
Aren't you forgetting the most important reason for locking people up: protecting the rest of society.

HideousKojima 3y ago

Because human beings feel it is appropriate and fair to punish people for wrongdoing, and without the state handling it individuals are more likely to take justice into their own hands. Making the criminal justice system sufficiently punishing is one of several checks against vigilantism.

mdip 3y ago

I believe you'll find a lot of people here in the US that believe prison, at least for the worst crimes, isn't about punishment or rehabilitation, but "containment".