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Unfortunately the world did nothing in the proceeding ~15 years. Imagine what Gaza could look like, and how improved the lives of Palestinians could be, if that

Unfortunately the world did nothing in the proceeding ~15 years. Imagine what Gaza could look like, and how improved the lives of Palestinians could be, if that $1B were spent on schools, hospitals, roads, and infrastructure. It's shocking to me that anyone thinks of Hamas as anything but a terrorist organization and ruthless regime.

bhouston 3y ago
Actually UNWRA funding was spend the money on schools. A majority of now them damaged or destroyed. But there was a secondary non-UN source of funds via Qatar directly to Hamas. Thus funding source was approved and encouraged by Netanyahu. Netanyahu actually empowered and transferred money to Hamas, while disempowering moderates because he felt that was the best way to ensure there was never a 2 state solution. Read it here in the Israeli press: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... You should educate yourself on what is actually going on, rather than repeating tropes.
- elromulous 3y ago
  Let's not forget that Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006 [0] in what is largely considered a fair election*. And if anything, Israel's interference would have been against Hamas (see Wikipedia link). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative... * There are some caveats to "fair" in this case, which is why I linked to the Wikipedia article. But it is by and large considered a legitimate democratic process.
  - drewbug01 3y ago
    > Let's not forget that Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006 in what is largely considered a fair election. What point are you trying to make with this statement? It’s also true that there hasn’t been an election in the past 17 years. I’m unclear what you’re trying to imply about the will of the Palestinian people here.
- slibhb 3y ago
  The idea that Netanyahu is responsible for Hamas' popularity is false. Yes, Israel has played Hamas off against the PA, yes that was a very bad move, but it's not the reason Palestinians prefer Hamas to the PA. Money doesn't explain everything.
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    > The idea that Netanyahu is responsible for Hamas' popularity is false. The claim was that Netanyahu preferred Hamas "to ensure there was never a 2 state solution", which is true. And so far it that seems to be working out. Mass starvation, infectious diseases, day 7 of the internet blackout in Gaza, the university in Gaza was just blown up with wired explosives, the Israeli government (even Mossad on Twitter, heh) proudly show it off. Hamas doesn't explain all that, the expansionist goals do, including why one would have preferred Hamas. There was never a realistic threat of Hamas "destroying all of Israel" from Gaza, regardless of what Hamas might have wished they were capable of, but the destruction of all of Gaza, and the people in it, is going on with a speed and ferocity we haven't seen before. https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palestinian-cultural-heritage-gaza-destruction-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palest... Allegedly, the count of bombs dropped on Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, half the population being minors, now surpassed the amount of bombs dropped in the second Iraq war by US and UK combined in ~8 years, that number being 29,199 bombs according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Ir... Here's an older (this all moves so quickly) article also discussing the 2000lbs bombs: https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html > A man sits on debris as Palestinians conduct a search and rescue operation in Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City, on November 1 Were there tunnels under the refugee camp? I don't know, and I don't care. One cannot hide the elephant of the violent excesses, the genocidal language and the settlers who seem to have their every whims catered for, completely behind the fig leaf of Hamas and the actors that support them.
    - prmph 3y ago
      > There was never a realistic threat of Hamas "destroying all of Israel" from Gaza, regardless of what Hamas might have wished they were capable of This is the argument I just don't get. Are you saying Hamas is not all that bad because, although they have clear genocidal intent, they are not likely to be able to carry it out? Its like saying a hitman, who fails to carry out a plan to kill, is better than a driver whose car malfunctions and actually causes a fatal accident.
slibhb 3y ago
> It's shocking to me that anyone thinks of Hamas as anything but a terrorist organization and ruthless regime. Hamas is more than that. It formed a government that provided services to Gazans. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which won the 2012 election in Egypt on the same grounds: the Muslim Brotherhood was seen as fairly effective at running clinics that provided free services (it's now illegal in Egypt since the coup). None of that discounts the indiscriminate violence that Hamas has engaged in. People have to face the fact that, increasingly, the choice in the Arab world is between some kind of popular Islamist regime and a more moderate dictatorship. The civil society that forms the basis for democracy just isn't there. Islam is only comparable force. So when people talk about a future Palestinian state, they should be asking "who would the king be?"
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  "We want to provide services to our people, and violently attack our neighbors." And then, in an extreme motte-and-bailey, when anyone criticizes the violence, we get reminded of the services they provide to their people. And it's true; they do. And they violently attack Israel, with great persistence, determination, ingenuity, and ferocity. Same with the Houthis. Same with Hizbullah. Same with the Muslim Brotherhood. And Iran tries very hard to equip them for that violence. Iran is much the same, though they prefer to use proxies for their attacks. Is there anyone in the Middle East who can competently provide services to their population without being violent extremists?
  - jemmyw 3y ago
    I'm going to guess that within hamas you have people who commit violence and people who provide community services, and these aren't the same people. If you want to provide for your community then the ruling organisation might be the only game in town to do that. On a very much larger scale, one might disprove of the actions of the US military but would work for the local council, and you wouldn't feel culpable because of the distance.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
readthenotes1 3y ago
How much are the 3 Hamas leaders in Qatar worth? $11b? Maybe Hamas should have tried to take care of its own instead of sending suicide bombers into Israel

bhouston 3y ago

Actually UNWRA funding was spend the money on schools. A majority of now them damaged or destroyed. But there was a secondary non-UN source of funds via Qatar directly to Hamas. Thus funding source was approved and encouraged by Netanyahu. Netanyahu actually empowered and transferred money to Hamas, while disempowering moderates because he felt that was the best way to ensure there was never a 2 state solution. Read it here in the Israeli press: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/ https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolste... You should educate yourself on what is actually going on, rather than repeating tropes.

elromulous 3y ago
Let's not forget that Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006 [0] in what is largely considered a fair election*. And if anything, Israel's interference would have been against Hamas (see Wikipedia link). [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative... * There are some caveats to "fair" in this case, which is why I linked to the Wikipedia article. But it is by and large considered a legitimate democratic process.
- drewbug01 3y ago
  > Let's not forget that Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006 in what is largely considered a fair election. What point are you trying to make with this statement? It’s also true that there hasn’t been an election in the past 17 years. I’m unclear what you’re trying to imply about the will of the Palestinian people here.
slibhb 3y ago
The idea that Netanyahu is responsible for Hamas' popularity is false. Yes, Israel has played Hamas off against the PA, yes that was a very bad move, but it's not the reason Palestinians prefer Hamas to the PA. Money doesn't explain everything.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  > The idea that Netanyahu is responsible for Hamas' popularity is false. The claim was that Netanyahu preferred Hamas "to ensure there was never a 2 state solution", which is true. And so far it that seems to be working out. Mass starvation, infectious diseases, day 7 of the internet blackout in Gaza, the university in Gaza was just blown up with wired explosives, the Israeli government (even Mossad on Twitter, heh) proudly show it off. Hamas doesn't explain all that, the expansionist goals do, including why one would have preferred Hamas. There was never a realistic threat of Hamas "destroying all of Israel" from Gaza, regardless of what Hamas might have wished they were capable of, but the destruction of all of Gaza, and the people in it, is going on with a speed and ferocity we haven't seen before. https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palestinian-cultural-heritage-gaza-destruction-in-pictures https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2024/jan/11/palest... Allegedly, the count of bombs dropped on Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, half the population being minors, now surpassed the amount of bombs dropped in the second Iraq war by US and UK combined in ~8 years, that number being 29,199 bombs according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Ir... Here's an older (this all moves so quickly) article also discussing the 2000lbs bombs: https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/gaza-israel-big-bombs/index.html > A man sits on debris as Palestinians conduct a search and rescue operation in Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza City, on November 1 Were there tunnels under the refugee camp? I don't know, and I don't care. One cannot hide the elephant of the violent excesses, the genocidal language and the settlers who seem to have their every whims catered for, completely behind the fig leaf of Hamas and the actors that support them.
  - prmph 3y ago
    > There was never a realistic threat of Hamas "destroying all of Israel" from Gaza, regardless of what Hamas might have wished they were capable of This is the argument I just don't get. Are you saying Hamas is not all that bad because, although they have clear genocidal intent, they are not likely to be able to carry it out? Its like saying a hitman, who fails to carry out a plan to kill, is better than a driver whose car malfunctions and actually causes a fatal accident.

slibhb 3y ago

> It's shocking to me that anyone thinks of Hamas as anything but a terrorist organization and ruthless regime. Hamas is more than that. It formed a government that provided services to Gazans. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which won the 2012 election in Egypt on the same grounds: the Muslim Brotherhood was seen as fairly effective at running clinics that provided free services (it's now illegal in Egypt since the coup). None of that discounts the indiscriminate violence that Hamas has engaged in. People have to face the fact that, increasingly, the choice in the Arab world is between some kind of popular Islamist regime and a more moderate dictatorship. The civil society that forms the basis for democracy just isn't there. Islam is only comparable force. So when people talk about a future Palestinian state, they should be asking "who would the king be?"

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
"We want to provide services to our people, and violently attack our neighbors." And then, in an extreme motte-and-bailey, when anyone criticizes the violence, we get reminded of the services they provide to their people. And it's true; they do. And they violently attack Israel, with great persistence, determination, ingenuity, and ferocity. Same with the Houthis. Same with Hizbullah. Same with the Muslim Brotherhood. And Iran tries very hard to equip them for that violence. Iran is much the same, though they prefer to use proxies for their attacks. Is there anyone in the Middle East who can competently provide services to their population without being violent extremists?
- jemmyw 3y ago
  I'm going to guess that within hamas you have people who commit violence and people who provide community services, and these aren't the same people. If you want to provide for your community then the ruling organisation might be the only game in town to do that. On a very much larger scale, one might disprove of the actions of the US military but would work for the local council, and you wouldn't feel culpable because of the distance.
  - AnimalMuppet 3y ago

readthenotes1 3y ago

How much are the 3 Hamas leaders in Qatar worth? $11b? Maybe Hamas should have tried to take care of its own instead of sending suicide bombers into Israel