6 ms·

IMO, an hour spent commuting is an hour stolen from one’s children.

brvsft 3y ago
I am starting to use coworking spaces now because WFH has something of a toll on my family, primarily because kids are loud, and it can be frustrating to work while your loud kid is screaming in the next room without enough of a sound barrier to prevent you from hearing it. I'm not angry at my child, but sometimes I get upset with my wife for not preventing this, or for telling me it's not that loud when it is impossible to escape the noise. (And when they're not being loud, they're being cute, and it's a tempting and easy distraction to go spend some time with them in the middle of a work day.) In this sort of dynamic, I see working at an office as a fairly healthy option. I know it's a bit of an outlier (SAH mother + WFH father), but I'm definitely more productive and less stressed out working from an office.
- 2024throwaway 3y ago
  Noise cancelling head phones and some soft music cuts out any kid noise completely for me.
- davely 3y ago
  I agree with this to an extent. Our kiddos are old enough to be in school. But if someone is home sick, I have to take the day off because it’s hard to get anything done. A reply to you mentioned noise-canceling headphones. That doesn’t work for me, because the kids want to engage and play with the parents when they’re at home. It’s not just a matter of noise. That said! I still agree with OP’s sentiment. I find that I’m much more relaxed without having to worry about the commute. More time to help the kids get ready and just enjoy the moment. More time to walk them to school. Before, I would be a ball of stress trying to get people out the door in the morning so I could catch one of only two buses that could take me across the bay to work. Same thing in the evenings. More time to pick them up, walk home, take serendipitous side adventures and help foster their curiosity. I love it.
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Yep, I strongly dislike working from home on days that the kids are home. But I also highly value the flexibility.
  - Novosell 3y ago
    In Sweden, you have legally mandated days to take off specifically for kid related reasons, such as illness, which is quite neat :)
- ssijak 3y ago
  I've bought 28sqm apartment to be my office, few mins by foot from our apartment when the kid arrived. It is just better to split work hours and family hours better at that point. Better for everybody. If the main apartment/house is big enough I would not have felt the need to do it probably. I would still not accept working from office jobs though.
- BeetleB 3y ago
  > I know it's a bit of an outlier (SAH mother + WFH father) Not much of an outlier.
  - hnbad 3y ago
    In this economy? Maybe not in your income bracket.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      In the US at least, it's like 2:1 ratio, maybe 30-35% of families with kids have a stay at home parent. So, less common, but not an incredible outlier.
      - dmoy 3y ago
        What's somewhat interesting is that at both very low and very high income levels, the % of stay-at-home parent is higher. So for people near poverty, or people making top 1%-ish income, it's less than a 2:1 ratio, more like 35-40%. For middle income like $40k-$100k, it's more like 3:1 or 4:1. At no income level is it lower than 20% stay at home parent though, so not too much of an outlier in any case.
    - BeetleB 3y ago
      Based on the data on this page[1] on households with kids: 57% have both parents working full time 28% have one parent working full time and the other not working at all. The remaining 16% is one full time, one part time. As another commenter pointed out - while not the majority, it's definitely not an outlier. [1] https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/comparing-characteristics-and-selected-expenditures-of-dual-and-single-income-households-with-children.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/comparing-characte...
- caskstrength 3y ago
  What is your office like? The ones I've had dubious honor to work in is like you describe, but with dozens of noisy adult children in the same room with me, not the next one.
pc86 3y ago
Hyperbole and language like this is exactly why it's so hard to have this debate in any rational way. The onsite crowd says that all their WFH colleagues are playing video games and doing laundry all day while the WFH crowd says employers are stealing from their employees' children.
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  I don't think the WFH crowd minds others going into the office. The pro onsite crowd on the other hand wants others forced into the office because their choice is unsupportable if people are given a free choice. >98% of workers want to work remote at least some of the time 65% report wanting to work remote all of the time. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statisti... If 1/3 of your workforce meets 2 days a week your average utilization is about 14%. The logical conclusion is a ghost town that goes away as soon as your employer cuts the building off like a diseased hand.
  - zeroclicks 3y ago
    > If 1/3 of your workforce meets 2 days a week your average utilization is about 14% That's a good point. All that fancy real estate and coffee machines start to look like a wasted investment when they're used 14% of the time.
  - tomtheelder 3y ago
    Although you’re probably right, I think you’ve got the motivation of the pro office crowd wrong. They want folks in office because if any significant part of your team is remote then you are effectively working remote, even if you’re in an office.
    - helboi4 3y ago
      Yep. Bingo. I want to interact with human beings otherwise my mental health tanks. I don't want to work remote and I even less so want to work in an empty office. If the office is empty I'm not going there because its twice as depressing.
sanderjd 3y ago
Is this also true of an hour spent winding up or down by going on a walk or reading a book or some other adult hobby? Personally, I don't believe I must either be working or spending time with my children every moment they are awake. I'm a person too, not just a worker and parent, and need to have my own time.
agent281 3y ago
At my last job, my manager was being flown in every week. He was in the office for three days a week and stayed at a hotel. His kids were apparently furious. The company was really committed to being in the office, but kept hiring people from different cities. It felt very destructive.
s1artibartfast 3y ago
Wait until you hear about construction and physical labor jobs. All run by child abusers.
helboi4 3y ago
What about all of us that don't have children. who need social interaction outside the house to be sane? who have just started our careers and need friendly colleagues around us who will support us? who have been cast out of adolescence into a world where everyone tells us to stay in our room alone and maybe download an app if you don't want to be suicidal. not everyone is a middle aged parent my guy
- bargle0 3y ago
  You shouldn’t depend on work for a social life, or even social interaction. Moreover, it’s not the responsibility of your coworkers to provide that to you. If you need mentorship, your employer may offer that as a formal program. You also might be able to reach out directly to more senior people. Frankly, I find more and better opportunities to provide mentorship over Zoom than I did in the office. Good luck with your career and mental health, my guy.

I am starting to use coworking spaces now because WFH has something of a toll on my family, primarily because kids are loud, and it can be frustrating to work while your loud kid is screaming in the next room without enough of a sound barrier to prevent you from hearing it. I'm not angry at my child, but sometimes I get upset with my wife for not preventing this, or for telling me it's not that loud when it is impossible to escape the noise. (And when they're not being loud, they're being cute, and it's a tempting and easy distraction to go spend some time with them in the middle of a work day.) In this sort of dynamic, I see working at an office as a fairly healthy option. I know it's a bit of an outlier (SAH mother + WFH father), but I'm definitely more productive and less stressed out working from an office.

2024throwaway 3y ago
Noise cancelling head phones and some soft music cuts out any kid noise completely for me.
davely 3y ago
I agree with this to an extent. Our kiddos are old enough to be in school. But if someone is home sick, I have to take the day off because it’s hard to get anything done. A reply to you mentioned noise-canceling headphones. That doesn’t work for me, because the kids want to engage and play with the parents when they’re at home. It’s not just a matter of noise. That said! I still agree with OP’s sentiment. I find that I’m much more relaxed without having to worry about the commute. More time to help the kids get ready and just enjoy the moment. More time to walk them to school. Before, I would be a ball of stress trying to get people out the door in the morning so I could catch one of only two buses that could take me across the bay to work. Same thing in the evenings. More time to pick them up, walk home, take serendipitous side adventures and help foster their curiosity. I love it.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Yep, I strongly dislike working from home on days that the kids are home. But I also highly value the flexibility.
- Novosell 3y ago
  In Sweden, you have legally mandated days to take off specifically for kid related reasons, such as illness, which is quite neat :)
ssijak 3y ago
I've bought 28sqm apartment to be my office, few mins by foot from our apartment when the kid arrived. It is just better to split work hours and family hours better at that point. Better for everybody. If the main apartment/house is big enough I would not have felt the need to do it probably. I would still not accept working from office jobs though.
BeetleB 3y ago
> I know it's a bit of an outlier (SAH mother + WFH father) Not much of an outlier.
- hnbad 3y ago
  In this economy? Maybe not in your income bracket.
  - dmoy 3y ago
    In the US at least, it's like 2:1 ratio, maybe 30-35% of families with kids have a stay at home parent. So, less common, but not an incredible outlier.
    - dmoy 3y ago
      What's somewhat interesting is that at both very low and very high income levels, the % of stay-at-home parent is higher. So for people near poverty, or people making top 1%-ish income, it's less than a 2:1 ratio, more like 35-40%. For middle income like $40k-$100k, it's more like 3:1 or 4:1. At no income level is it lower than 20% stay at home parent though, so not too much of an outlier in any case.
  - BeetleB 3y ago
    Based on the data on this page[1] on households with kids: 57% have both parents working full time 28% have one parent working full time and the other not working at all. The remaining 16% is one full time, one part time. As another commenter pointed out - while not the majority, it's definitely not an outlier. [1] https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/comparing-characteristics-and-selected-expenditures-of-dual-and-single-income-households-with-children.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/comparing-characte...
caskstrength 3y ago
What is your office like? The ones I've had dubious honor to work in is like you describe, but with dozens of noisy adult children in the same room with me, not the next one.

pc86 3y ago

Hyperbole and language like this is exactly why it's so hard to have this debate in any rational way. The onsite crowd says that all their WFH colleagues are playing video games and doing laundry all day while the WFH crowd says employers are stealing from their employees' children.

michaelmrose 3y ago
I don't think the WFH crowd minds others going into the office. The pro onsite crowd on the other hand wants others forced into the office because their choice is unsupportable if people are given a free choice. >98% of workers want to work remote at least some of the time 65% report wanting to work remote all of the time. https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statistics/ https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/remote-work-statisti... If 1/3 of your workforce meets 2 days a week your average utilization is about 14%. The logical conclusion is a ghost town that goes away as soon as your employer cuts the building off like a diseased hand.
- zeroclicks 3y ago
  > If 1/3 of your workforce meets 2 days a week your average utilization is about 14% That's a good point. All that fancy real estate and coffee machines start to look like a wasted investment when they're used 14% of the time.
- tomtheelder 3y ago
  Although you’re probably right, I think you’ve got the motivation of the pro office crowd wrong. They want folks in office because if any significant part of your team is remote then you are effectively working remote, even if you’re in an office.
  - helboi4 3y ago
    Yep. Bingo. I want to interact with human beings otherwise my mental health tanks. I don't want to work remote and I even less so want to work in an empty office. If the office is empty I'm not going there because its twice as depressing.

sanderjd 3y ago

Is this also true of an hour spent winding up or down by going on a walk or reading a book or some other adult hobby? Personally, I don't believe I must either be working or spending time with my children every moment they are awake. I'm a person too, not just a worker and parent, and need to have my own time.

agent281 3y ago

At my last job, my manager was being flown in every week. He was in the office for three days a week and stayed at a hotel. His kids were apparently furious. The company was really committed to being in the office, but kept hiring people from different cities. It felt very destructive.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

Wait until you hear about construction and physical labor jobs. All run by child abusers.

helboi4 3y ago

What about all of us that don't have children. who need social interaction outside the house to be sane? who have just started our careers and need friendly colleagues around us who will support us? who have been cast out of adolescence into a world where everyone tells us to stay in our room alone and maybe download an app if you don't want to be suicidal. not everyone is a middle aged parent my guy

bargle0 3y ago
You shouldn’t depend on work for a social life, or even social interaction. Moreover, it’s not the responsibility of your coworkers to provide that to you. If you need mentorship, your employer may offer that as a formal program. You also might be able to reach out directly to more senior people. Frankly, I find more and better opportunities to provide mentorship over Zoom than I did in the office. Good luck with your career and mental health, my guy.