4 ms·

This is my experience. My productivity on coding is a lot hire remote. On many leadership / management-style tasks, it's a lot lower. Come to think of it, I'm

by blagie 3y ago

This is my experience. My productivity on coding is a lot hire remote. On many leadership / management-style tasks, it's a lot lower. Come to think of it, I'm wondering if that's where the split comes in. Upper management sees their productivity go down -- on what's fundamentally an interpersonal endeavour -- while individual contributors see theirs go up -- on what's primarily solitary ones. As a result, there is friction with top-down work-from-office mandates.

jack_riminton 3y ago
This is it. Add to the fact that poor managers don't really understand or know what their staff are doing, it gives them anxiety. If the same poor manager is in an office with them and can see them at their desk then it alleviates that somewhat. Managing people is really really hard, but we seem to have a managerial class who seem to be getting away with doing it very poorly.
- walledstance 3y ago
  “Managing people is really really hard” I like your reply, but for different reasons. I am a middle school teacher, and my day to day is managing people. It is tiring, decidedly so, and yet at the end of the day, management is rewarding for me for because it is relationship building through gaining individual understanding and building classroom consensus. I love my job and am good at my job. But if I’m to step outside of my classroom your latter quote becomes far too truthful for me: “we seem to have a managerial class who seem to be getting away with doing it very poorly” Your quote applies directly to my supposed superiors; assistant principals, principals, and higher ups in the school board. Most of the managerial class outside of a classroom is trash at their jobs. Their management style seems mostly morale busting and ego inflation at day’s end. I agree with you, just from a different occupational domain.
- icedchai 3y ago
  Yep. It's the old "butts in seats" philosophy. The new one is "keep your Slack dot green" (or equivalent.) Many managers were always clueless what their staff are doing at the office. Many still are. It's incredible that we have all these tools (Jira, Asana, Github, Slack...) plus many are forced to give status updates in daily standups and other assorted "agile" nonsense, yet there are still those can't figure out what people are working on.
brandall10 3y ago
I think this is largely it - the whole maker vs. manager thing... when your job relies on focus, being in a situation where you can control distractions is a benefit. But when your job relies on getting others' attention it can clearly be a negative, esp. if the culture is not thoroughly supportive. It also adds an extra hurdle for those who aren't particularly skilled at management.
weebull 3y ago
It's the point where you're no longer an individual contributor. Running a team and keeping people on target is difficult remotely. Consensus is difficult remotely. Feedback is difficult remotely. Getting your head down and coding on your personal goal is easy remotely. I think some ICs like that it's harder for people to say to them that they are driving in the wrong direction, even if it's still true.
- intended 3y ago
  I argue against this point. I believe it indicates a skill gap, not a physical law. If you've played MMOs, been parts of raids, or been active in a guild - you figure out how to solve these problems. I've been in a community management and moderation role entirely online - those interactions and issues were, by far, the most subjective and complex project discussions I have had to conduct. I believe that there is an entire generation of workers AND managers, who will be entering the workforce with highly effective remote working habits. The caveat is, that this applies to work that can be done online, where your product can be examined and verified online.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    The MMO generation already entered the workforce a long time ago. Many of them are now middle-aged professionals. But because MMOs have always been a relatively niche hobby, with even the most popular games having only a few million daily players, their impact has not been that significant. They are a small minority in the overall workforce, and while they do have effective remote working habits, they have been self-selected for the ability and interest to form communities online.
    - intended 3y ago
      I think that was the reminder that I am very much middle aged now. You are right, however I would say that raids and coordinated e-sports were on the periphery when I was playing. I had to set up my own teams and lan tournaments. Nice distinction to highlight though, thank you! The skill set would require specific coordination skills, not just being able to play team matches occasionally. I suppose its proof that the skill exists, just not its distribution in the workforce.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
Seems pretty obvious to me that this has always been the divide
dfxm12 3y ago
I have a lot of interpersonal work, with people all around the world. Going into the office just to talk on these people on Teams doesn't give a productivity boost. Being able to do this or not is a skill, just like coding is a skill. I try not to bog down my team if I'm deficient in some skill, instead, I work to improve it.
julianozen 3y ago
I agree with this

by blagie 3y ago

jack_riminton 3y ago

This is it. Add to the fact that poor managers don't really understand or know what their staff are doing, it gives them anxiety. If the same poor manager is in an office with them and can see them at their desk then it alleviates that somewhat. Managing people is really really hard, but we seem to have a managerial class who seem to be getting away with doing it very poorly.

walledstance 3y ago
“Managing people is really really hard” I like your reply, but for different reasons. I am a middle school teacher, and my day to day is managing people. It is tiring, decidedly so, and yet at the end of the day, management is rewarding for me for because it is relationship building through gaining individual understanding and building classroom consensus. I love my job and am good at my job. But if I’m to step outside of my classroom your latter quote becomes far too truthful for me: “we seem to have a managerial class who seem to be getting away with doing it very poorly” Your quote applies directly to my supposed superiors; assistant principals, principals, and higher ups in the school board. Most of the managerial class outside of a classroom is trash at their jobs. Their management style seems mostly morale busting and ego inflation at day’s end. I agree with you, just from a different occupational domain.
icedchai 3y ago
Yep. It's the old "butts in seats" philosophy. The new one is "keep your Slack dot green" (or equivalent.) Many managers were always clueless what their staff are doing at the office. Many still are. It's incredible that we have all these tools (Jira, Asana, Github, Slack...) plus many are forced to give status updates in daily standups and other assorted "agile" nonsense, yet there are still those can't figure out what people are working on.

brandall10 3y ago

I think this is largely it - the whole maker vs. manager thing... when your job relies on focus, being in a situation where you can control distractions is a benefit. But when your job relies on getting others' attention it can clearly be a negative, esp. if the culture is not thoroughly supportive. It also adds an extra hurdle for those who aren't particularly skilled at management.

weebull 3y ago

It's the point where you're no longer an individual contributor. Running a team and keeping people on target is difficult remotely. Consensus is difficult remotely. Feedback is difficult remotely. Getting your head down and coding on your personal goal is easy remotely. I think some ICs like that it's harder for people to say to them that they are driving in the wrong direction, even if it's still true.

intended 3y ago
I argue against this point. I believe it indicates a skill gap, not a physical law. If you've played MMOs, been parts of raids, or been active in a guild - you figure out how to solve these problems. I've been in a community management and moderation role entirely online - those interactions and issues were, by far, the most subjective and complex project discussions I have had to conduct. I believe that there is an entire generation of workers AND managers, who will be entering the workforce with highly effective remote working habits. The caveat is, that this applies to work that can be done online, where your product can be examined and verified online.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  The MMO generation already entered the workforce a long time ago. Many of them are now middle-aged professionals. But because MMOs have always been a relatively niche hobby, with even the most popular games having only a few million daily players, their impact has not been that significant. They are a small minority in the overall workforce, and while they do have effective remote working habits, they have been self-selected for the ability and interest to form communities online.
  - intended 3y ago
    I think that was the reminder that I am very much middle aged now. You are right, however I would say that raids and coordinated e-sports were on the periphery when I was playing. I had to set up my own teams and lan tournaments. Nice distinction to highlight though, thank you! The skill set would require specific coordination skills, not just being able to play team matches occasionally. I suppose its proof that the skill exists, just not its distribution in the workforce.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

Seems pretty obvious to me that this has always been the divide

dfxm12 3y ago

I have a lot of interpersonal work, with people all around the world. Going into the office just to talk on these people on Teams doesn't give a productivity boost. Being able to do this or not is a skill, just like coding is a skill. I try not to bog down my team if I'm deficient in some skill, instead, I work to improve it.

julianozen 3y ago

I agree with this