3 ms·

> Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Any economic system can do that. But with free markets a

by nickpp 3y ago

> Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Any economic system can do that. But with free markets a fair price is reached and healthy competition encouraged. Of course most governments will create monopolies instead. > generally well known economic principle Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? > housing Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. > USSR was outperforming the US economically USSR was starving. USA had to send grains to avoid starvation - Kansas became Russia's bread basket. When the Berlin wall fell the stores in the East had empty shelves while the ones in the West presented the usual bonanza of products and options. > A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list Of course not everybody has everything. But the per-capita GDP is inching closer to the West while Purchasing Power will soon be at parity. Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. > plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited.

medo-bear 3y ago
Capitalism means competion, which means strong eat weak. If someone has what you need to survive, you eat them (figuratively speaking haha). On scale of state actors, this means war. Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources. I belive that slowly we are reaching that stage of culture as humans where we will collectively realize that this is the only way to survive without war famine etc, just as our relationship with nature and environment is beggining to take on forms of collective responsibility. > Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? How about the GFC, which is still being felt today. > Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (i personally find brutalist architecture aesthetically appealing), what you say about structural quality of socialist housing is very wrong. In fact, given the prevelance of reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. For socialist construction withstanding earthquakes see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake Anyway the point is, people in Eastern Europe can relax in ways that would make many people in the West jealous - ie they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Or worst, kiss bank managers bums to get a home loan approved. Owning a home is as real a wealth as it comes. > Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. The economic growth rate of socialist block of countries was double that of the West, until 1980s. The difference being that socialist block excelled at heavy industry and strategic development. They had major problems with light industry (hence the shortages in convenience sotres). On the other hand, economic development in Eastern Europe today is driven largely by outsourcing of labour from the West, and many heavy industries had to be closed because Western bosses didn't want competition. The reason why companies from the West go to Eastern Europe has alot to do with the level of education of labour force in Eastern Europe. And guess what system is responsible for said levels of education ... :) My belief is that socialism in eastern europe sucked big time. However to ignore some of its benefits is simply stupid. If we can learn well from history we are in a better place as humans to build a better world for all humans. Otherwise we will descend into war and barbarism, where we find ourselves at the moment. The key difference between the situation preceding WWI and today is the presence of nuclear weapons. Even trench warfare has made a comeback. > They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited. Maybe they also miss their generous anual leave, work rights, and 36 hour work week.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  > Capitalism means competion, which means strong eat weak. > Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources. > reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. > they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Are you out of your mind? Have you actually lived under communism? I grew up under soviet occupation and none of those things were even remotely true. The party apparachiks ate the weak for breakfast, no rule of law, no fairness. As the saying goes: everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. The quality of the concrete housing blocks is abysmal, there have been pretty bad collapses, the ventilation and insulation is nonexistent, it's a dreadful existence in them. Availability of apartments was really bad, you had to wait in line for 10 years before you could get one. Then start fixing the flaws by yourself. Wanted a zhiguli car? Wait in line for 5 years to get a permit to buy a car, then go to get it from some ass end corner of russia. After getting home, get few friends to pretty much disassemble the car to make sure that every bolt is actually tightened so the car would not disintegrate randomly. As for kissing bosses asses, this was there even more. Bribes to get basics. Wanted to get sausage, stand in line for a few hours only to find out that "it's run out, wink, wink, gimme a bottle of vodka and wait behind the shop, maybe I find some".
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    > Have you actually lived under communism? Yes, but are you just retelling stories you overheard? > Availability of apartments was really bad, you had to wait in line for 10 years before you could get one. Then start fixing the flaws by yourself The socialist countries were built on litteraly nothing, with a majority of population being illiterate. As developing countries they did very well. A fair comparison would actually be a country like Portugal or south Italy or even Greece. Waiting 10 years for an appartment is nothing, even by standards in the West. What is the average age of (loaned) property purchase in the West? What is the average age of loan repayment? In some advanced Western countries it is generation and a half. > The party apparachiks ate the weak for breakfast, no rule of law, no fairness. As the saying goes: everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. Hahaha and what do you think you have to do today in many Eastern European countries, just to get a stable job. Hahaha All those "apparachiks" just changed sides and do the same shit under capitalism. In my country (EU) this sort of curruption still exists. If you actually need to be told this then I very much doubt you live in Eastern Europe, let alone somewhere not-at-all-corrupt like Ukraine

by nickpp 3y ago

medo-bear 3y ago

Capitalism means competion, which means strong eat weak. If someone has what you need to survive, you eat them (figuratively speaking haha). On scale of state actors, this means war. Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources. I belive that slowly we are reaching that stage of culture as humans where we will collectively realize that this is the only way to survive without war famine etc, just as our relationship with nature and environment is beggining to take on forms of collective responsibility. > Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? How about the GFC, which is still being felt today. > Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (i personally find brutalist architecture aesthetically appealing), what you say about structural quality of socialist housing is very wrong. In fact, given the prevelance of reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. For socialist construction withstanding earthquakes see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake Anyway the point is, people in Eastern Europe can relax in ways that would make many people in the West jealous - ie they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Or worst, kiss bank managers bums to get a home loan approved. Owning a home is as real a wealth as it comes. > Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. The economic growth rate of socialist block of countries was double that of the West, until 1980s. The difference being that socialist block excelled at heavy industry and strategic development. They had major problems with light industry (hence the shortages in convenience sotres). On the other hand, economic development in Eastern Europe today is driven largely by outsourcing of labour from the West, and many heavy industries had to be closed because Western bosses didn't want competition. The reason why companies from the West go to Eastern Europe has alot to do with the level of education of labour force in Eastern Europe. And guess what system is responsible for said levels of education ... :) My belief is that socialism in eastern europe sucked big time. However to ignore some of its benefits is simply stupid. If we can learn well from history we are in a better place as humans to build a better world for all humans. Otherwise we will descend into war and barbarism, where we find ourselves at the moment. The key difference between the situation preceding WWI and today is the presence of nuclear weapons. Even trench warfare has made a comeback. > They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited. Maybe they also miss their generous anual leave, work rights, and 36 hour work week.

jnsaff2 3y ago
> Capitalism means competion, which means strong eat weak. > Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources. > reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. > they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Are you out of your mind? Have you actually lived under communism? I grew up under soviet occupation and none of those things were even remotely true. The party apparachiks ate the weak for breakfast, no rule of law, no fairness. As the saying goes: everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. The quality of the concrete housing blocks is abysmal, there have been pretty bad collapses, the ventilation and insulation is nonexistent, it's a dreadful existence in them. Availability of apartments was really bad, you had to wait in line for 10 years before you could get one. Then start fixing the flaws by yourself. Wanted a zhiguli car? Wait in line for 5 years to get a permit to buy a car, then go to get it from some ass end corner of russia. After getting home, get few friends to pretty much disassemble the car to make sure that every bolt is actually tightened so the car would not disintegrate randomly. As for kissing bosses asses, this was there even more. Bribes to get basics. Wanted to get sausage, stand in line for a few hours only to find out that "it's run out, wink, wink, gimme a bottle of vodka and wait behind the shop, maybe I find some".
- medo-bear 3y ago
  > Have you actually lived under communism? Yes, but are you just retelling stories you overheard? > Availability of apartments was really bad, you had to wait in line for 10 years before you could get one. Then start fixing the flaws by yourself The socialist countries were built on litteraly nothing, with a majority of population being illiterate. As developing countries they did very well. A fair comparison would actually be a country like Portugal or south Italy or even Greece. Waiting 10 years for an appartment is nothing, even by standards in the West. What is the average age of (loaned) property purchase in the West? What is the average age of loan repayment? In some advanced Western countries it is generation and a half. > The party apparachiks ate the weak for breakfast, no rule of law, no fairness. As the saying goes: everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. Hahaha and what do you think you have to do today in many Eastern European countries, just to get a stable job. Hahaha All those "apparachiks" just changed sides and do the same shit under capitalism. In my country (EU) this sort of curruption still exists. If you actually need to be told this then I very much doubt you live in Eastern Europe, let alone somewhere not-at-all-corrupt like Ukraine