10 ms·

Good point about screen width. Personally, I don't have much problem with it - I just move the doc left/right as I read, but I know most people don't like it. (

Good point about screen width. Personally, I don't have much problem with it - I just move the doc left/right as I read, but I know most people don't like it. (Come to think of it, formatting in columns might be a good idea for modern PDFs.) > Page 54 from the original is also trivial to preserve with any reader's pagination, it's just a numeric separator Pagination changes in different readers. That's why PDFs work so hard to be consistent.

eviks 3y ago
> Pagination changes in different readers. That's what I said, but this doesn't matter much, you can have the original page 54 span for 4 reader's pages if the reader has a small screen with each of those 4 pages having the same number 54 so you can maintain the reference to the unmarked diagram
- wolverine876 3y ago
  That solution doesn't sound great. Consider these situations: * User is on p.54, turns the page, and now they are on ... ? * User tells a friend: 'Look at the second paragraph of p.54'. Friend: 'I'm looking, I don't see it'. User: 'Oh, the other p.54' ...
  - eviks 3y ago
    Page turning would change two numbers, one of them would always increment by 1 But the same issues exist today with PDF since you have page count (more visible since it's usually permanently visible in the app) and page labels, which are often different and thus can confuse your friend (by the way, does 2nd paragraph count include the last line of the previous paragraph at the top or does it start count at first full paragraph?) (The better solution of more precise, e.g., per-paragraph, marks is, I think, also easier outside of PDF since PDFs don't retain text structure, only its visual position)
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > Page turning would change two numbers, one of them would always increment by 1 I don't think most end-users will like that. > But the same issues exist today with PDF since you have page count (more visible since it's usually permanently visible in the app) and page labels Yes, not a good situation, so why duplicate it elsewhere? Anyway, if I say 'page 545', IME people understand it's the document's page number and not the PDF page count.
      - eviks 3y ago
        If you have such understating people they'd have no issues understanding that there are two systems of coordinates in the new format just like in PDF (reader page vs writer page / absolute page vs writer page) But you don't need to duplicate it, all I was saying is PDF as exists has no benefits here. Also, speaking of columns, when you reflow page to fit the narrow screen, you can simply make the same page longer instead of splitying, then you can have your same single writer page number. Basically, it's a non-issue for format comparison purposes, you can make UI whatever you like (unless it's PDF where nothing can reflow)
        wolverine876 3y ago
        Pagination is preserved in PDFs, even if the page numbering is complicated. > when you reflow page to fit the narrow screen, you can simply make the same page longer instead of splitying, then you can have your same single writer page number. You could do that, but IME, formats/apps besides PDF don't preserve pagination. Consistency across platforms, applications, etc. is hard.
boxed 3y ago
Scrolling around is idiotic and user hostile.
- fauigerzigerk 3y ago
  Yes, horizontal scrolling can be very inconvenient. On the other hand, reflowing content can destroy information. Sometimes scrolling is just the least worst option.
  - boxed 3y ago
    How does reflowing destroy content? Can you give some examples?
    - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
      What I'm thinking of is diagrams, graphs or trees where the relative position of elements is what conveys the actual information. In other cases, the information may not be destroyed entirely but much harder for people to see. For instance, automatically reflowing the London tube map would make it look totally unfamiliar.
      - crabmusket 3y ago
        The London tube map was definitely not what I had in mind when talking about "documents" in my OP. Of course some things need to have precise layout, but PDFs are used inappropriately for many things that do not.
      - xigoi 3y ago
        For diagrams, you can embed SVG in HTML, which obviously won’t reflow.
      - boxed 3y ago
        I have never seen any of those kinds of examples reflow incorrectly in html.
  - 3y ago
eviks 3y ago
By the way, precise page navigation is broken in PDF as well - you can have page 54 as displayed below a page and an actual page 54 as displayed in your reader because people love those fancy roman iii numerals

eviks 3y ago

> Pagination changes in different readers. That's what I said, but this doesn't matter much, you can have the original page 54 span for 4 reader's pages if the reader has a small screen with each of those 4 pages having the same number 54 so you can maintain the reference to the unmarked diagram

wolverine876 3y ago
That solution doesn't sound great. Consider these situations: * User is on p.54, turns the page, and now they are on ... ? * User tells a friend: 'Look at the second paragraph of p.54'. Friend: 'I'm looking, I don't see it'. User: 'Oh, the other p.54' ...
- eviks 3y ago
  Page turning would change two numbers, one of them would always increment by 1 But the same issues exist today with PDF since you have page count (more visible since it's usually permanently visible in the app) and page labels, which are often different and thus can confuse your friend (by the way, does 2nd paragraph count include the last line of the previous paragraph at the top or does it start count at first full paragraph?) (The better solution of more precise, e.g., per-paragraph, marks is, I think, also easier outside of PDF since PDFs don't retain text structure, only its visual position)
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > Page turning would change two numbers, one of them would always increment by 1 I don't think most end-users will like that. > But the same issues exist today with PDF since you have page count (more visible since it's usually permanently visible in the app) and page labels Yes, not a good situation, so why duplicate it elsewhere? Anyway, if I say 'page 545', IME people understand it's the document's page number and not the PDF page count.
    - eviks 3y ago
      If you have such understating people they'd have no issues understanding that there are two systems of coordinates in the new format just like in PDF (reader page vs writer page / absolute page vs writer page) But you don't need to duplicate it, all I was saying is PDF as exists has no benefits here. Also, speaking of columns, when you reflow page to fit the narrow screen, you can simply make the same page longer instead of splitying, then you can have your same single writer page number. Basically, it's a non-issue for format comparison purposes, you can make UI whatever you like (unless it's PDF where nothing can reflow)
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        Pagination is preserved in PDFs, even if the page numbering is complicated. > when you reflow page to fit the narrow screen, you can simply make the same page longer instead of splitying, then you can have your same single writer page number. You could do that, but IME, formats/apps besides PDF don't preserve pagination. Consistency across platforms, applications, etc. is hard.

boxed 3y ago

Scrolling around is idiotic and user hostile.

fauigerzigerk 3y ago
Yes, horizontal scrolling can be very inconvenient. On the other hand, reflowing content can destroy information. Sometimes scrolling is just the least worst option.
- boxed 3y ago
  How does reflowing destroy content? Can you give some examples?
  - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
    What I'm thinking of is diagrams, graphs or trees where the relative position of elements is what conveys the actual information. In other cases, the information may not be destroyed entirely but much harder for people to see. For instance, automatically reflowing the London tube map would make it look totally unfamiliar.
    - crabmusket 3y ago
      The London tube map was definitely not what I had in mind when talking about "documents" in my OP. Of course some things need to have precise layout, but PDFs are used inappropriately for many things that do not.
    - xigoi 3y ago
      For diagrams, you can embed SVG in HTML, which obviously won’t reflow.
    - boxed 3y ago
      I have never seen any of those kinds of examples reflow incorrectly in html.
- 3y ago

eviks 3y ago

By the way, precise page navigation is broken in PDF as well - you can have page 54 as displayed below a page and an actual page 54 as displayed in your reader because people love those fancy roman iii numerals