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That's… Interesting. So, what's your axiom for deriving realness from? Because I tend to think along two axes: 1. You can derive realness from materialistic, p

That's… Interesting. So, what's your axiom for deriving realness from? Because I tend to think along two axes: 1. You can derive realness from materialistic, physical phenomena. So in this case, quark-gluon-electron interactions are real, and basically everything else is like 99% imaginary. "Society" is no more and no less real than anything else. And/or: 2. You can derive realness from minds' conscious perception, experience, and interaction. In this case, "society", being an aggregate of many minds' mutual and conflicting experiences and interactions, is probably one of the most real things there are. And of course you can unify the two, by framing the latter within the former based on the information-theoretic complexity of the physical substrate of the minds, and by framing the former within the latter as the common, shared basis of perceived and lived experiences. --- But I'm not sure what concept of realness would let you say ""Society" is the most abstract illusion of them all". Or do you mean that the rigidity of currently existing societies and their specific laws and customs, as universal and immutable constants, is what "has always been a complete fiction and pretend"? In that case I would fully agree; You can have multiple possible societies, in any number of shapes and configurations. But that does not make extant societies, as they are right now, any less real for those that live in or otherwise interact with them. > So, maintaining a bunch of fictions in order to maintain another fiction becomes circular reasoning. Uh, no. Not circular reasoning. Fear of starvation, more like. Fear of marauders killing your loved ones to take their resources. Fear of entropy. Agriculture, presently existing as a function of society, is certainly very real– assuming your body obeys the laws of thermodynamics.

carlosjobim 3y ago
All materialistic, physical objects and phenomena are real. The physical world is one category of what exists. Think of what would exist if humans were not conscious beings, starting tomorrow. Without any complex thinking or reasoning. Sure, money would exist as the paper it's printed on, and your government would exist as some concrete buildings and some papers in a filing cabinet. That is only what these things are. They are in physical reality nothing more. The second category of what exists in reality is human souls / consciousness and animal souls / consciousness. Beyond those two categories, there is nothing that exists, unless you enter supernatural territory. Which is not to be discarded, but here we're talking about man-made stuff. We can talk about money, society, ownership of land, and such. But they are always only imagined by people, they themselves can never transcend from the realm of idea and imagination into the realm of the real. Even though we have to relate to these ideas in everyday life because how they control the behaviours of our peers and ourselves, we can never forget that they are not real. But most forget. In the past and in some regions even today, people held deep beliefs about curses and individual taboos. That a jealous neighbour or romantic rival would curse them, or more likely that a Shaman at their birth informed their family that this person can not eat this or do that, or they would die. And from accounts I've read, people believed this so deeply that they would have convulsions and even die if they broke their taboo by mistake. Just by the power of a false belief. Or the countless who waste their lives believing in some lie about "society". Or people who live under the curses of shame and guilt. And the curse of pride for that matter. It is much more beneficial and easy on the soul to disregard all and any idea of society and instead deal with people as individuals. Because you're almost always dealing with individuals. And stay away from those who are too deep in the illusion and false belief of "society" or any such thing, because they only know how to bow to those they perceive as higher and kick down on those they perceive as lower. As humans and individuals, the best thing we can do for ourselves is cleanse our mind from false beliefs. That doesn't mean that we will forget how these ideas work on people, it means we can see them from a higher perspective and that they do not exist. They can be used as pleased, but should never control a superior being. Agriculture is not a function of society, it's a function of tilling the earth with a plow and sowing seeds. Nothing about it is abstract. I frankly didn't understand that example. The Bible goes on and on about not having other gods besides God, but it also says that you should not _make_ idols, which I think is a very important and overlooked part. Anything that is undeniably created by humans is a false idol and worshipping it is a mistake. Most people alive right now worship their government, or more accurately their idea of what their government is. Because most do not know how their own government works on paper. Most people would die and kill for their government, while at the same time being nonplussed by other things that should make their blood boil. The slightly smarter ones worship money. One day when they're old, they'll be rich and have their own yacht. If they forgot about their fake money god for a moment, they could go sail the oceans as crew on a yacht while they are young and can enjoy the experience. Can they buy back their youth with some fake money printed in limitless quantities? No, because reality does not bow to the non-real, even if every single person on the planet believed in a falsehood. But a lot of people will have a whole lot of suffering from false beliefs. That's how literal hell on earth is created.

carlosjobim 3y ago

All materialistic, physical objects and phenomena are real. The physical world is one category of what exists. Think of what would exist if humans were not conscious beings, starting tomorrow. Without any complex thinking or reasoning. Sure, money would exist as the paper it's printed on, and your government would exist as some concrete buildings and some papers in a filing cabinet. That is only what these things are. They are in physical reality nothing more. The second category of what exists in reality is human souls / consciousness and animal souls / consciousness. Beyond those two categories, there is nothing that exists, unless you enter supernatural territory. Which is not to be discarded, but here we're talking about man-made stuff. We can talk about money, society, ownership of land, and such. But they are always only imagined by people, they themselves can never transcend from the realm of idea and imagination into the realm of the real. Even though we have to relate to these ideas in everyday life because how they control the behaviours of our peers and ourselves, we can never forget that they are not real. But most forget. In the past and in some regions even today, people held deep beliefs about curses and individual taboos. That a jealous neighbour or romantic rival would curse them, or more likely that a Shaman at their birth informed their family that this person can not eat this or do that, or they would die. And from accounts I've read, people believed this so deeply that they would have convulsions and even die if they broke their taboo by mistake. Just by the power of a false belief. Or the countless who waste their lives believing in some lie about "society". Or people who live under the curses of shame and guilt. And the curse of pride for that matter. It is much more beneficial and easy on the soul to disregard all and any idea of society and instead deal with people as individuals. Because you're almost always dealing with individuals. And stay away from those who are too deep in the illusion and false belief of "society" or any such thing, because they only know how to bow to those they perceive as higher and kick down on those they perceive as lower. As humans and individuals, the best thing we can do for ourselves is cleanse our mind from false beliefs. That doesn't mean that we will forget how these ideas work on people, it means we can see them from a higher perspective and that they do not exist. They can be used as pleased, but should never control a superior being. Agriculture is not a function of society, it's a function of tilling the earth with a plow and sowing seeds. Nothing about it is abstract. I frankly didn't understand that example. The Bible goes on and on about not having other gods besides God, but it also says that you should not _make_ idols, which I think is a very important and overlooked part. Anything that is undeniably created by humans is a false idol and worshipping it is a mistake. Most people alive right now worship their government, or more accurately their idea of what their government is. Because most do not know how their own government works on paper. Most people would die and kill for their government, while at the same time being nonplussed by other things that should make their blood boil. The slightly smarter ones worship money. One day when they're old, they'll be rich and have their own yacht. If they forgot about their fake money god for a moment, they could go sail the oceans as crew on a yacht while they are young and can enjoy the experience. Can they buy back their youth with some fake money printed in limitless quantities? No, because reality does not bow to the non-real, even if every single person on the planet believed in a falsehood. But a lot of people will have a whole lot of suffering from false beliefs. That's how literal hell on earth is created.