5 ms·

If that option is important to you, why deeply embed yourself in an ecosystem that doesn't have it when others exist?

by ribosometronome 3y ago

ado__dev 3y ago
Apple's hardware is unmatched unfortunately.
- teki_one 3y ago
  My user experience on a Pixel 6 Pro was better than on the iPhone 15 Pro Max (had to switch for family reasons). I do not take away from Apple that their customer service is top notch and for many users that matters as much as how good the SW is.
- massysett 3y ago
  Perhaps Apple’s hardware is unmatched in part because they profit from it by using the very mechanisms you don’t like. The engineering resources to focus on perfect hardware aren’t cheap. There is plenty of junk hardware out there that gives you more freedom.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    If having good hardware means spending a lot on hardware development, then the price of the hardware can reflect that, rather than being subsidized by unrelated business segments.
    - HatchedLake721 3y ago
      Yes, let’s teach one of the most successful companies in the world how to price their products and do business.
    - Bud 3y ago
      [dead]
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    I am sorry this is a total fabrication - we know the sales of iPhones entirely cover all expenses associated with hardware manufacturing and R&D. Their margins on laptops are thinner but the AppStore is not as relevant there. The situation is the other way round - it’s the App Store that makes the iPhone useful. Windows Phone (the remake one) had good hardware, it literally was killed by lack of apps. I had one, I miss it.
    - HatchedLake721 3y ago
      And who played part in Windows Phone demise? Epic? Which never released the Unreal Engine for Windows Phone and now cries the loudest about the status quo. Or the 1000’s of developers who abandoned pre App Store distribution models in favor of Apple’s hardware, software and APIs, happily signed up to 30% revenue share with Apple that didn't change in 15 years? (other than go down to 15% for 90% of sellers who do under a million of annual revenue)
      - NetOpWibby 3y ago
        LMAO MICROSOFT played the hugest part in Windows Phone demise. I still had a Palm Pre at the time and was waiting for a particular yellow Nokia Windows Phone to release for Sprint. My recollection is muddy after that but Windows Phone was no more so I got an iPhone.
        HatchedLake721 3y ago
        Possibly, but at the time Windows Phones were snappier and often had better hardware than Android. For me, developers played a huge part. There were a lot of popular and new apps missing in the windows store. Microsoft had to even co-fund app developers to build apps for windows phone, without much luck or being too late. E.g. Instagram for Windows released 18 months after Android. Did YouTube ever release on windows phone? This played a big part in people choosing iOS/Android instead. I haven’t looked into this for years, but that’s my recollection of early/mid 2010s. The Verge seems to confirm my historic bias: > If you’re wondering why none of Microsoft’s many strenuous Windows Phone efforts ultimately paid off, the key answer lies in the platform’s chronic failure to attract third-party app developers. Every time Nokia launched a new Windows Phone, it had to dodge and duck the question of when there’ll be an Instagram app for the OS. Even as Microsoft was beating Google at providing a smoother and slicker first-party app experience, Google was winning handily in having the more essential apps and the more enthusiastic third-party ecosystem. https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/10/16452162/windows-phone-history-glorious-failure https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/10/16452162/windows-phone-h...
  - m3kw9 3y ago
    Freedom has its limits, and Apple provides enough freedom for most users
- jjulius 3y ago
  "That's how they get ya."
mmbop 3y ago
Responses to this talk about how the ecosystem and hardware is great. I wonder if it would be so good if they were more squeezed to chase profits? I’m usually skeptical of companies with this many users because of the potential to mine and sell data. I’m glad Apple hasn’t had to focus on that to stay profitable to the extent others have.
dotnet00 3y ago
I know many people who find themselves stuck in Apple's ecosystem since while they personally could switch out their computer and relearn everything, they can't really disrupt the things their older family are used to on other devices and expect them to relearn everything. Combined with Apple's love of walled gardens (and therefore very limited interoperability with other platforms), switching out would cause too much friction. Similar to how while I can buy my parents new Android phones as upgrades, they'll just go back to the old ones if they can't have the old school navigation bar they're used to. Unlike me they're no longer willing to relearn how everything works every few years. It's always kind of annoying seeing this "just don't use it" argument, as it completely ignores that part of the point of the walled garden is that it gradually forces people to be so invested in the garden that it becomes increasingly expensive to leave it. It's a similar network effect as what keeps abusive platforms like YouTube alive despite no one really liking it.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
  >It's always kind of annoying seeing this "just don't use it" argument, as it completely ignores that part of the point of the walled garden is that it gradually forces people to be so invested in the garden that it becomes increasingly expensive to leave it. My personal experience doesn't leave me super convinced of this, which is why I asked. I don't think I use any apps I've purchased on the regular anymore. There are a few I subscribe to, but that's an ongoing fee I could continue to pay on Android (if the app exists) and I'll buy a game every now and then, but I rarely go back to them, so I'm not sure that I'm personally losing a ton of sleep over the loss of access to Magic Research. The cost of moving is going to be my time in migration. The issue you describe (parents preferring iOS over Android) sounds rather distinct of an issue to a walled garden.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    I wouldn't say it's that they prefer it, as they have no concept of iOS or Android, nor Windows, MAC or Linux, they just care about if it's similar enough to what they've already painstakingly learned to use and deal with the quirks of. What I'm referring to as a walled garden issue is that they've learned to use the "included" features like iCloud etc, those are walled in (ie using it on Android isn't as smooth). Thus when you switch away, you're expecting them to learn the new UI and to get used to different services (eg google drive) and their associated menus. I suppose it's better described as vendor lock-in, similar to how before you could easily transfer your phone number between carriers, the number itself acted as a form of lock-in, if you used the number on anything important you were stuck with the number until you could get the number updated.

If that option is important to you, why deeply embed yourself in an ecosystem that doesn't have it when others exist?

ado__dev 3y ago

Apple's hardware is unmatched unfortunately.

teki_one 3y ago
My user experience on a Pixel 6 Pro was better than on the iPhone 15 Pro Max (had to switch for family reasons). I do not take away from Apple that their customer service is top notch and for many users that matters as much as how good the SW is.
massysett 3y ago
Perhaps Apple’s hardware is unmatched in part because they profit from it by using the very mechanisms you don’t like. The engineering resources to focus on perfect hardware aren’t cheap. There is plenty of junk hardware out there that gives you more freedom.
- kibwen 3y ago
  If having good hardware means spending a lot on hardware development, then the price of the hardware can reflect that, rather than being subsidized by unrelated business segments.
  - HatchedLake721 3y ago
    Yes, let’s teach one of the most successful companies in the world how to price their products and do business.
  - Bud 3y ago
    [dead]
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  I am sorry this is a total fabrication - we know the sales of iPhones entirely cover all expenses associated with hardware manufacturing and R&D. Their margins on laptops are thinner but the AppStore is not as relevant there. The situation is the other way round - it’s the App Store that makes the iPhone useful. Windows Phone (the remake one) had good hardware, it literally was killed by lack of apps. I had one, I miss it.
  - HatchedLake721 3y ago
    And who played part in Windows Phone demise? Epic? Which never released the Unreal Engine for Windows Phone and now cries the loudest about the status quo. Or the 1000’s of developers who abandoned pre App Store distribution models in favor of Apple’s hardware, software and APIs, happily signed up to 30% revenue share with Apple that didn't change in 15 years? (other than go down to 15% for 90% of sellers who do under a million of annual revenue)
    - NetOpWibby 3y ago
      LMAO MICROSOFT played the hugest part in Windows Phone demise. I still had a Palm Pre at the time and was waiting for a particular yellow Nokia Windows Phone to release for Sprint. My recollection is muddy after that but Windows Phone was no more so I got an iPhone.
      - HatchedLake721 3y ago
        Possibly, but at the time Windows Phones were snappier and often had better hardware than Android. For me, developers played a huge part. There were a lot of popular and new apps missing in the windows store. Microsoft had to even co-fund app developers to build apps for windows phone, without much luck or being too late. E.g. Instagram for Windows released 18 months after Android. Did YouTube ever release on windows phone? This played a big part in people choosing iOS/Android instead. I haven’t looked into this for years, but that’s my recollection of early/mid 2010s. The Verge seems to confirm my historic bias: > If you’re wondering why none of Microsoft’s many strenuous Windows Phone efforts ultimately paid off, the key answer lies in the platform’s chronic failure to attract third-party app developers. Every time Nokia launched a new Windows Phone, it had to dodge and duck the question of when there’ll be an Instagram app for the OS. Even as Microsoft was beating Google at providing a smoother and slicker first-party app experience, Google was winning handily in having the more essential apps and the more enthusiastic third-party ecosystem. https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/10/16452162/windows-phone-history-glorious-failure https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/10/16452162/windows-phone-h...
- m3kw9 3y ago
  Freedom has its limits, and Apple provides enough freedom for most users
jjulius 3y ago
"That's how they get ya."

mmbop 3y ago

Responses to this talk about how the ecosystem and hardware is great. I wonder if it would be so good if they were more squeezed to chase profits? I’m usually skeptical of companies with this many users because of the potential to mine and sell data. I’m glad Apple hasn’t had to focus on that to stay profitable to the extent others have.

dotnet00 3y ago

I know many people who find themselves stuck in Apple's ecosystem since while they personally could switch out their computer and relearn everything, they can't really disrupt the things their older family are used to on other devices and expect them to relearn everything. Combined with Apple's love of walled gardens (and therefore very limited interoperability with other platforms), switching out would cause too much friction. Similar to how while I can buy my parents new Android phones as upgrades, they'll just go back to the old ones if they can't have the old school navigation bar they're used to. Unlike me they're no longer willing to relearn how everything works every few years. It's always kind of annoying seeing this "just don't use it" argument, as it completely ignores that part of the point of the walled garden is that it gradually forces people to be so invested in the garden that it becomes increasingly expensive to leave it. It's a similar network effect as what keeps abusive platforms like YouTube alive despite no one really liking it.

ribosometronome 3y ago
>It's always kind of annoying seeing this "just don't use it" argument, as it completely ignores that part of the point of the walled garden is that it gradually forces people to be so invested in the garden that it becomes increasingly expensive to leave it. My personal experience doesn't leave me super convinced of this, which is why I asked. I don't think I use any apps I've purchased on the regular anymore. There are a few I subscribe to, but that's an ongoing fee I could continue to pay on Android (if the app exists) and I'll buy a game every now and then, but I rarely go back to them, so I'm not sure that I'm personally losing a ton of sleep over the loss of access to Magic Research. The cost of moving is going to be my time in migration. The issue you describe (parents preferring iOS over Android) sounds rather distinct of an issue to a walled garden.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I wouldn't say it's that they prefer it, as they have no concept of iOS or Android, nor Windows, MAC or Linux, they just care about if it's similar enough to what they've already painstakingly learned to use and deal with the quirks of. What I'm referring to as a walled garden issue is that they've learned to use the "included" features like iCloud etc, those are walled in (ie using it on Android isn't as smooth). Thus when you switch away, you're expecting them to learn the new UI and to get used to different services (eg google drive) and their associated menus. I suppose it's better described as vendor lock-in, similar to how before you could easily transfer your phone number between carriers, the number itself acted as a form of lock-in, if you used the number on anything important you were stuck with the number until you could get the number updated.