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I don't see an issue with this? The Federal government is a massive waste of taxpayer funds that could be far better utilized at state levels, or just simply no

I don't see an issue with this? The Federal government is a massive waste of taxpayer funds that could be far better utilized at state levels, or just simply not collected in the first place.

moose_man 3y ago
Ah, the old states rights take.
- jimz 3y ago
  No, not state's rights. Due process of law and non-delegation are what's being ignored, and in turn, situations where actual harm is being caused without any avenue of redress is commonplace, particularly post PATRIOT Act. This isn't the 1970s anymore. With the courts holding onto Chevron deference and the reorganization post 9/11 that effectively armed agencies to make them literally judge jury and executioner (not in that order) in some cases, as well as the continued inaction by congress to at least not allow Bivens to be whittled away to nothing, fundamentally what exemplifies agency action is no longer the idealized "do-gooders" but instead, ICE using tactics that would certainly be outside of what's permitted by the police to effectuate rules that it created and interpreted and enforced based on the barest of congressional mandates - and the abdication is on purpose - that results in American citizens being deported with little recourse or redress (provided that they make it back into the US somehow); CBP routinely fails to notify or deliberate skips notification for hearings prior to seizing what it deems contraband - never mind civil forfeiture (which it partakes in certainly), but administrative forfeiture; FDA rubber stamping DEA's requests which has no requirement to take into account any harm DEA's scheduling and enforcement processes may create to ordinary, law-abiding patients, and all this is on the record, whether it be from the inspectors general of the agencies themselves or during the rulemaking process, printed in black letter and online in the federal register. Post PATRIOT Act, DHS effectively is a paramilitary force that only partly answers to any court, and by large acts as enforcement for the executive branch. They do not serve judicial warrants but pretend to do so, use ruses to circumvent the 4th Amendment and refuse to answer FOIA requests, and agents have literally gotten away with murder not because the facts do not support such claims but because of a jurisdictional issue. It enables congress to write the vaguest of laws and let the agencies fill in the blanks as they wish, and they do so with gusto, frequently in ways that make no sense to the ordinary American or even English speaker in their selectiveness and choice of wording to the extent where multiple cases brought by states have litigated the wrong term of art before the process was mooted due to a change of administration. Agencies are frequently putting out non-binding, contradictory guidance on matters of importance, like, say, if crypto is a security. They also ignore parts of black letter law - asylum law has been broadly ignored by the Trump and the first half of the Biden administration, and in fact the distinct impression I get, having litigated such issues against DHS subagencies, is that the administration lacks full understanding of the complexities the agencies have created by themselves when it comes to rulemaking to the extent where terms that have no differentiation in plain English refer to entirely different things on a routine basis and somehow the term "admission" has at least six distinct definitions, sometimes used in conjunction in one paragraph, all of which are terms of art. I can only comment on the agencies I directly dealt with as an attorney and in the best of times, when the law (or really, custom) is followed correctly, absurdities happen routinely that cause real harm. That's just one agency. The practices of the SEC, FAA, and a myriad of others that are more or less in a state of regulatory capture is frequently written about, but not having direct experience dealing with their homespun processes, feel free to start by perusing each agency's Inspector General Reports to get a sense of the tip of the iceberg. It has nothing to do with states' rights - we are talking about federal agencies, as there is actually recourse and remedies against state agencies, but not against federal agencies. Even if you believe that agencies are all acting on good intentions, it is creating bad - and frequently kafkaesque - outcomes. Administrative law covers a lot of areas of concern, but it's when agencies, with next to no regard to due process as we ordinarily understand it and acting as brownshirts of whichever administration in power, make a mockery of basic human rights and back it up with loaded guns and pretensions of police, we're in a place that the congress that drafted the Administrative Procedures Act never anticipated and arguably, never intended, yet, here we are. Judicially my interpretation of the constitution is of the kind that believes not in the Borkian judicial restraint (which begs the question why does the court even exist) but an engaged court that is willing to fix things that have gone awry, feel free to label it however you want, as long as I'm grouped in with the pro-immigration anti-nationalist faction.
wizerdrobe 3y ago
Having spent four (4) hours on hold with the BATFE yesterday only to be given a robotic answer from a clerk, and told to piss office, I would agree there is room for improvement. If you need my name and a serial number to tell me “delayed” and no actionable information why not make a form.
postmodest 3y ago
The EPA and the FDA ensure that you can't have a state decide that "workers in the sausage" is acceptable, then sell cannibal sausage to states with laws that protect workers and consumers, or to protect you from a state deciding that all of that benzene flowing into the river is YOUR state's problem. If you can't see this because you believe "why would someone do evil?" Then you are hopelessly naive or intentionally pushing a bad take.
- anon291 3y ago
  Are you positing that, before the FDA and EPA existed, cannibalism was legal? Or that murder was legal? Because that's an extremely poor argument. Murder has a long history of being illegal in the United States
  - postmodest 3y ago
    Quelle Suprise: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle#Reception https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle#Reception Business bank on ignorance and only nationwide exposure by constant taxpayer-funded monitoring can fix it. See also Boeing.
stcroixx 3y ago
Agreed, this is great, functioning as designed. Very few things are appropriate at the federal level and states have all the power they need to implement policy for their residents.
rtkwe 3y ago
With free commerce between the states regulations make more sense defined at the higher level for consistency and because issues like pollution don't care that you've crossed a political boundary. Even if it were devolved to the states how much of that would change because huge states like California already have an outsized impact on products because of their huge market. Devolution would paradoxically lead to even lower political influence than now, what does a politician on the other side of the country or 3 states away upstream of your water supply care about your vote? Also the devolution back to Congress which is the more likely outcome of this is similarly fraught with issues. We delegated these powers to agencies so that your 1 term state rep didn't need to get involved deciding if 3-Methylbut-3enyl acetate [0] in apple juice is a problem or just comes from squeezing the apples. Congress sets up and defines the boundaries of the agencies and if they over step there are dozens of checks on their power including new laws from Congress. I much prefer that state of affairs over a geriatric stagnant Congress trying to decide if a new chemical additive is food safe or not. [0] One of the thousand natural chemicals that sound spooky but are just hard to name because nature doesn't care for our convenience. Taken from the classic Antivaxx vs chemical composition of an apple image.
falcolas 3y ago
Imagine trying to run a national business where your state-equivalent of EPA standards changes with every state. It would be worse than the sales tax snafu companies have to navigate today. One for EPA standards. One for worker's rights. One for workplace safety. One for shipping standards. Repeat ad-nausium.
- abduhl 3y ago
  This is a silly comment as your state-equivalent EPA standards do change with every state. The federal EPA’s standards are a minimum. Many states go above that minimum to varying degrees. California is notorious here: they’re called CalEPA. Same with workplace safety where CalOSHA is significantly more stringent than OSHA. Not only that, but many laws change from state to state. Can you imagine trying to run a business when employment laws vary state to state? Can you imagine trying to run a business when statutes of limitation vary from state to state? Can you imagine trying to run a business where manufacturer or products liability changes from state to state? No need to imagine: it’s happening every day!

I don't see an issue with this? The Federal government is a massive waste of taxpayer funds that could be far better utilized at state levels, or just simply not collected in the first place.

moose_man 3y ago

Ah, the old states rights take.

jimz 3y ago
No, not state's rights. Due process of law and non-delegation are what's being ignored, and in turn, situations where actual harm is being caused without any avenue of redress is commonplace, particularly post PATRIOT Act. This isn't the 1970s anymore. With the courts holding onto Chevron deference and the reorganization post 9/11 that effectively armed agencies to make them literally judge jury and executioner (not in that order) in some cases, as well as the continued inaction by congress to at least not allow Bivens to be whittled away to nothing, fundamentally what exemplifies agency action is no longer the idealized "do-gooders" but instead, ICE using tactics that would certainly be outside of what's permitted by the police to effectuate rules that it created and interpreted and enforced based on the barest of congressional mandates - and the abdication is on purpose - that results in American citizens being deported with little recourse or redress (provided that they make it back into the US somehow); CBP routinely fails to notify or deliberate skips notification for hearings prior to seizing what it deems contraband - never mind civil forfeiture (which it partakes in certainly), but administrative forfeiture; FDA rubber stamping DEA's requests which has no requirement to take into account any harm DEA's scheduling and enforcement processes may create to ordinary, law-abiding patients, and all this is on the record, whether it be from the inspectors general of the agencies themselves or during the rulemaking process, printed in black letter and online in the federal register. Post PATRIOT Act, DHS effectively is a paramilitary force that only partly answers to any court, and by large acts as enforcement for the executive branch. They do not serve judicial warrants but pretend to do so, use ruses to circumvent the 4th Amendment and refuse to answer FOIA requests, and agents have literally gotten away with murder not because the facts do not support such claims but because of a jurisdictional issue. It enables congress to write the vaguest of laws and let the agencies fill in the blanks as they wish, and they do so with gusto, frequently in ways that make no sense to the ordinary American or even English speaker in their selectiveness and choice of wording to the extent where multiple cases brought by states have litigated the wrong term of art before the process was mooted due to a change of administration. Agencies are frequently putting out non-binding, contradictory guidance on matters of importance, like, say, if crypto is a security. They also ignore parts of black letter law - asylum law has been broadly ignored by the Trump and the first half of the Biden administration, and in fact the distinct impression I get, having litigated such issues against DHS subagencies, is that the administration lacks full understanding of the complexities the agencies have created by themselves when it comes to rulemaking to the extent where terms that have no differentiation in plain English refer to entirely different things on a routine basis and somehow the term "admission" has at least six distinct definitions, sometimes used in conjunction in one paragraph, all of which are terms of art. I can only comment on the agencies I directly dealt with as an attorney and in the best of times, when the law (or really, custom) is followed correctly, absurdities happen routinely that cause real harm. That's just one agency. The practices of the SEC, FAA, and a myriad of others that are more or less in a state of regulatory capture is frequently written about, but not having direct experience dealing with their homespun processes, feel free to start by perusing each agency's Inspector General Reports to get a sense of the tip of the iceberg. It has nothing to do with states' rights - we are talking about federal agencies, as there is actually recourse and remedies against state agencies, but not against federal agencies. Even if you believe that agencies are all acting on good intentions, it is creating bad - and frequently kafkaesque - outcomes. Administrative law covers a lot of areas of concern, but it's when agencies, with next to no regard to due process as we ordinarily understand it and acting as brownshirts of whichever administration in power, make a mockery of basic human rights and back it up with loaded guns and pretensions of police, we're in a place that the congress that drafted the Administrative Procedures Act never anticipated and arguably, never intended, yet, here we are. Judicially my interpretation of the constitution is of the kind that believes not in the Borkian judicial restraint (which begs the question why does the court even exist) but an engaged court that is willing to fix things that have gone awry, feel free to label it however you want, as long as I'm grouped in with the pro-immigration anti-nationalist faction.

wizerdrobe 3y ago

Having spent four (4) hours on hold with the BATFE yesterday only to be given a robotic answer from a clerk, and told to piss office, I would agree there is room for improvement. If you need my name and a serial number to tell me “delayed” and no actionable information why not make a form.

postmodest 3y ago

The EPA and the FDA ensure that you can't have a state decide that "workers in the sausage" is acceptable, then sell cannibal sausage to states with laws that protect workers and consumers, or to protect you from a state deciding that all of that benzene flowing into the river is YOUR state's problem. If you can't see this because you believe "why would someone do evil?" Then you are hopelessly naive or intentionally pushing a bad take.

anon291 3y ago
Are you positing that, before the FDA and EPA existed, cannibalism was legal? Or that murder was legal? Because that's an extremely poor argument. Murder has a long history of being illegal in the United States
- postmodest 3y ago
  Quelle Suprise: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle#Reception https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle#Reception Business bank on ignorance and only nationwide exposure by constant taxpayer-funded monitoring can fix it. See also Boeing.

stcroixx 3y ago

Agreed, this is great, functioning as designed. Very few things are appropriate at the federal level and states have all the power they need to implement policy for their residents.

rtkwe 3y ago

With free commerce between the states regulations make more sense defined at the higher level for consistency and because issues like pollution don't care that you've crossed a political boundary. Even if it were devolved to the states how much of that would change because huge states like California already have an outsized impact on products because of their huge market. Devolution would paradoxically lead to even lower political influence than now, what does a politician on the other side of the country or 3 states away upstream of your water supply care about your vote? Also the devolution back to Congress which is the more likely outcome of this is similarly fraught with issues. We delegated these powers to agencies so that your 1 term state rep didn't need to get involved deciding if 3-Methylbut-3enyl acetate [0] in apple juice is a problem or just comes from squeezing the apples. Congress sets up and defines the boundaries of the agencies and if they over step there are dozens of checks on their power including new laws from Congress. I much prefer that state of affairs over a geriatric stagnant Congress trying to decide if a new chemical additive is food safe or not. [0] One of the thousand natural chemicals that sound spooky but are just hard to name because nature doesn't care for our convenience. Taken from the classic Antivaxx vs chemical composition of an apple image.

falcolas 3y ago

Imagine trying to run a national business where your state-equivalent of EPA standards changes with every state. It would be worse than the sales tax snafu companies have to navigate today. One for EPA standards. One for worker's rights. One for workplace safety. One for shipping standards. Repeat ad-nausium.

abduhl 3y ago
This is a silly comment as your state-equivalent EPA standards do change with every state. The federal EPA’s standards are a minimum. Many states go above that minimum to varying degrees. California is notorious here: they’re called CalEPA. Same with workplace safety where CalOSHA is significantly more stringent than OSHA. Not only that, but many laws change from state to state. Can you imagine trying to run a business when employment laws vary state to state? Can you imagine trying to run a business when statutes of limitation vary from state to state? Can you imagine trying to run a business where manufacturer or products liability changes from state to state? No need to imagine: it’s happening every day!