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Often times the people complaining about groupthink are also the ones acting immature. If you inject in your comment the feel of someone trying to rebel ("I kn

Often times the people complaining about groupthink are also the ones acting immature. If you inject in your comment the feel of someone trying to rebel ("I know I'm going to get down voted..." or "I hate to be that guy..."), you're already starting off wrong. Act the part of an adult and you'll be treated like one. I've found that if I spend a few minutes to justify my belief, and approach the discussion as that of peers rather than assuming my opinion is all that matters, things go very well, even when we disagree. So yeah, HN does have an element of groupthink: that those who are disrespectful are not welcome here, regardless of their opinion. Most likely, their opinion can be found in other comments but written by someone that is looking to engage in an adult conversation and not out to belittle or insult the rest of us.

sbierwagen 15y ago
This is correct. Essentially every single one of my 500+ comments is expressing disagreement, yet I only get downvoted if I do something stupid. On HN, the submissions run media hot (since submissions can only be upvoted, not downvoted) while comments run media cold. (where logic and reasonableness are much more highly valued than in the submissions)
devgutt 15y ago
Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". Know what, i like all kind of comments, especially the harsh ones. I just ignore the stupid parts and go on. I don´t read the comments emotionally.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  > Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". That's an excuse that unprofessional people use to try to excuse their poor behavior. It's the same problem that "brogrammers" are having when they offend people with their "tits or gtfo" attitude. Just to be sure, I'm not intending to imply you are like these people. And don't confuse HN's brand of entrepreneurs with rebels. They are far from rebels. They are playing a well established, very old game. Their attitude is not a result of the rebellion against any system (they are playing within the system), but rather the very simple fact of where they came from and their upbringing. The common entrepreneur is professional, polite, and intelligent. They aren't pretending to be a rebel. They are starting a company. While I applaud your ability to read past the rude comments, the simple fact is, this is a discussion. And rude comments are meant to be that: rude. And many people here want to promote civil discourse, not rude, emotional, immature outbursts.
- chris_wot 15y ago
  The problem is that many others cannot do this. In general, the more emotional the discussion, the more noise is generated. You don't want to have to wade through a dozen nested comments of accusations and pointless and off-topic argumentation before you get to the actual decent content.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
>Often times the people complaining about groupthink are also the ones acting immature. Not everytime though. Especially in topics like Microsoft/Apple/Google, the moderation is brutal if you don't fit in the groupthink. A big example: http://winsupersite.com http://winsupersite.com is hellbanned on HN from being submitted as a story(if you do it will show up for you, but actually it's killed so won't show up for others at all). What crime could the site have possibly committed to deserve such an extreme banning(there are no instances of other tech sites that I know of getting banned, can you give me any?). Post complaining about the banning: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3408883 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3408883 The answer is simple, the site is of Microsoft watcher, insider and enthusiast Paul Thurrott who posts breaking news, analysis and reviews with a sometimes positive slant. That is enough for some "enthusiasts" of other platforms here to flag it to death and ultimately to hellbanning. I am guessing someone who innocently submits stories from there regularly will get their account hellbanned to, for not conforming to the groupthink on here. This is just the visible tip of the iceberg of the groupthink which downvotes comments and flags any legitimate news that doesn't conform. You think the point in this post is just a figment of the author's imagination? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3663447 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3663447 Another example of legitimate news getting flagged to death: http://i.imgur.com/fSJqq.png http://i.imgur.com/fSJqq.png How long before Winbeta is hellbanned from ever appearing on HN for being a Windows-centric news site? Just because you haven't experienced this does not mean that others have not constantly been downvoted for their (non disrespectful) opinions. I believe that's behind their defensive "I know I am going to get downvoted..." lines.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  > Not everytime though. No doubt. Hence my careful phrasing. =) > Just because you haven't experienced this... I have. But even then, if I take an honest look at what I wrote, I find I could easily discern how it comes off as me acting the part of an asshole. You post several examples (of which many are merely people complaining about downvotes which aren't contributing anything meaningful and should not be encouraged), but really, they mean anything. There will always be exceptions, but they only prove their is no groupthink beyond being respectful, intelligent, and contributing to the discussion. > I believe that's behind their defensive "I know I am going to get downvoted..." lines. Honestly, if someone spends more time writing "I know I'm going to get downvoted... HN groupthink... go ahead downvote me but you know I'm right..." then they do putting thought into their comment, I will down vote. Stop worrying about little arrows, and just be polite, post intelligently, and contribute.
ot 15y ago
But there is a clear fear of downvotes, as you point out many start with "I know I'm going to get down voted", a few weeks ago someone posted the HN search for "I don't mean to be ...", but also look at "genuinely curious": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=genuinely+curious&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=genuinely+c... . I'm wondering if this kind of social pressure is preventing the less confident people to express their respectable opinions.

sbierwagen 15y ago

This is correct. Essentially every single one of my 500+ comments is expressing disagreement, yet I only get downvoted if I do something stupid. On HN, the submissions run media hot (since submissions can only be upvoted, not downvoted) while comments run media cold. (where logic and reasonableness are much more highly valued than in the submissions)

devgutt 15y ago

Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". Know what, i like all kind of comments, especially the harsh ones. I just ignore the stupid parts and go on. I don´t read the comments emotionally.

jasonlotito 15y ago
> Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". That's an excuse that unprofessional people use to try to excuse their poor behavior. It's the same problem that "brogrammers" are having when they offend people with their "tits or gtfo" attitude. Just to be sure, I'm not intending to imply you are like these people. And don't confuse HN's brand of entrepreneurs with rebels. They are far from rebels. They are playing a well established, very old game. Their attitude is not a result of the rebellion against any system (they are playing within the system), but rather the very simple fact of where they came from and their upbringing. The common entrepreneur is professional, polite, and intelligent. They aren't pretending to be a rebel. They are starting a company. While I applaud your ability to read past the rude comments, the simple fact is, this is a discussion. And rude comments are meant to be that: rude. And many people here want to promote civil discourse, not rude, emotional, immature outbursts.
chris_wot 15y ago
The problem is that many others cannot do this. In general, the more emotional the discussion, the more noise is generated. You don't want to have to wade through a dozen nested comments of accusations and pointless and off-topic argumentation before you get to the actual decent content.

recoiledsnake 15y ago

>Often times the people complaining about groupthink are also the ones acting immature. Not everytime though. Especially in topics like Microsoft/Apple/Google, the moderation is brutal if you don't fit in the groupthink. A big example: http://winsupersite.com http://winsupersite.com is hellbanned on HN from being submitted as a story(if you do it will show up for you, but actually it's killed so won't show up for others at all). What crime could the site have possibly committed to deserve such an extreme banning(there are no instances of other tech sites that I know of getting banned, can you give me any?). Post complaining about the banning: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3408883 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3408883 The answer is simple, the site is of Microsoft watcher, insider and enthusiast Paul Thurrott who posts breaking news, analysis and reviews with a sometimes positive slant. That is enough for some "enthusiasts" of other platforms here to flag it to death and ultimately to hellbanning. I am guessing someone who innocently submits stories from there regularly will get their account hellbanned to, for not conforming to the groupthink on here. This is just the visible tip of the iceberg of the groupthink which downvotes comments and flags any legitimate news that doesn't conform. You think the point in this post is just a figment of the author's imagination? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3663447 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3663447 Another example of legitimate news getting flagged to death: http://i.imgur.com/fSJqq.png http://i.imgur.com/fSJqq.png How long before Winbeta is hellbanned from ever appearing on HN for being a Windows-centric news site? Just because you haven't experienced this does not mean that others have not constantly been downvoted for their (non disrespectful) opinions. I believe that's behind their defensive "I know I am going to get downvoted..." lines.

jasonlotito 15y ago
> Not everytime though. No doubt. Hence my careful phrasing. =) > Just because you haven't experienced this... I have. But even then, if I take an honest look at what I wrote, I find I could easily discern how it comes off as me acting the part of an asshole. You post several examples (of which many are merely people complaining about downvotes which aren't contributing anything meaningful and should not be encouraged), but really, they mean anything. There will always be exceptions, but they only prove their is no groupthink beyond being respectful, intelligent, and contributing to the discussion. > I believe that's behind their defensive "I know I am going to get downvoted..." lines. Honestly, if someone spends more time writing "I know I'm going to get downvoted... HN groupthink... go ahead downvote me but you know I'm right..." then they do putting thought into their comment, I will down vote. Stop worrying about little arrows, and just be polite, post intelligently, and contribute.

ot 15y ago

But there is a clear fear of downvotes, as you point out many start with "I know I'm going to get down voted", a few weeks ago someone posted the HN search for "I don't mean to be ...", but also look at "genuinely curious": http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=genuinely+curious&start=0 http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=genuinely+c... . I'm wondering if this kind of social pressure is preventing the less confident people to express their respectable opinions.