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> Apple releases a new major version of Safari every year like clockwork and pushes people hard to update. That's largely a byproduct of their attempt to keep

by toyg 3y ago

> Apple releases a new major version of Safari every year like clockwork and pushes people hard to update. That's largely a byproduct of their attempt to keep support costs low by forcing yearly upgrades of the entire OS. Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else (while being 10 times wealthier...), I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. > “Don’t know” and “don’t want to use” are two entirely different things. Come on now - discoverability and education are things. If Apple wanted to, they would make that feature so easy and promote it so heavily, that everyone would do it or at least know how to do it. > If people preferred PWAs and it was just down to Apple holding them back Don't strawman me, I never said that. I said that Apple is not making any effort to change a status quo where consumers are not keen on the feature, which tallies with your experience. There is nothing stopping them from aiming their reality distortion field at the feature, as a service to developers.

JimDabell 3y ago
> Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. You can’t measure progress by counting releases. > I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. They aren’t though. Take a look at the Interop 2023 dashboard: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable Or just read through the WebKit blog: https://webkit.org/blog/ https://webkit.org/blog/ They are getting loads done. > The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. Your exact words were: “they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago” and my point is that it’s very unlike that.
- toyg 3y ago
  They picked up the slack only after they were shamed multiple times, including by websites like https://issafarithenewie.com/ https://issafarithenewie.com/ (which now reflects their progress, very honestly). A brief look at items from the last several years will return lots of pretty bad press. > They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. Just to mention one, WebRTC took 7 years to go from the first Firefox implementation to Safari. Chrome had it less than 2 years after FF, so I guess not 10x but 3x-4x - still a very significant lag, which is definitely not explainable by lack of resources.
  - JimDabell 3y ago
    But that’s just it – you are just mentioning one. No mention of the many, many improvements that were made. Safari has been advancing steadily every single year since it was first released. Which makes it an entirely different situation to Internet Explorer, which held the web at an absolute standstill for five straight years. Sorry, no, not an absolute standstill. Windows XP Service Pack 2 tweaked how an HTTP header was handled. That was the most significant movement in the front-end development world in a five year period. Because of Internet Explorer. Compare Safari 12 to Safari 17. Now imagine we were still stuck with Safari 12. That’s what it would be like if Safari “dragged their feet” like Microsoft did with Internet Explorer. They aren’t the same thing, not even remotely close. Anybody saying that “Safari is the new IE” clearly does not remember what Internet Explorer did to the industry, especially if they are saying it because of things like Safari won’t let websites vibrate your phone.
    - toyg 3y ago
      The difference is simply a function of smarter leadership and experience. Of course nobody, today, would act exactly like MS did - that would make it trivial for people to see their game. Instead, Apple gives you something to show they're trying, "honest, guv" - but in ebbs and flows, only when pushed, and slower than everyone else despite being the most profitable company on the block. To be honest, nobody would really care how many releases they push or how many features they push, if only they let other browsers compete on iOS. But they don't; so they carry a responsibility to be at the forefront of standards and look absolutely beyond reproach - which, at the moment, is not the case.
      - JimDabell 3y ago
        > The difference is simply a function of smarter leadership and experience. Look, the difference is glaringly obvious: Microsoft brought front-end development to a standstill for five long years. Apple has not. Apple has continued to add features, standards support, and interoperability bug fixes year after year like clockwork. This isn’t a matter of nuance. This isn’t Apple being “smarter”. Apple fundamentally has not done what Microsoft did in any way, shape, or form. The two situations are extremely dissimilar.

by toyg 3y ago

JimDabell 3y ago

> Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. You can’t measure progress by counting releases. > I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. They aren’t though. Take a look at the Interop 2023 dashboard: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable Or just read through the WebKit blog: https://webkit.org/blog/ https://webkit.org/blog/ They are getting loads done. > The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. Your exact words were: “they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago” and my point is that it’s very unlike that.

toyg 3y ago
They picked up the slack only after they were shamed multiple times, including by websites like https://issafarithenewie.com/ https://issafarithenewie.com/ (which now reflects their progress, very honestly). A brief look at items from the last several years will return lots of pretty bad press. > They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. Just to mention one, WebRTC took 7 years to go from the first Firefox implementation to Safari. Chrome had it less than 2 years after FF, so I guess not 10x but 3x-4x - still a very significant lag, which is definitely not explainable by lack of resources.
- JimDabell 3y ago
  But that’s just it – you are just mentioning one. No mention of the many, many improvements that were made. Safari has been advancing steadily every single year since it was first released. Which makes it an entirely different situation to Internet Explorer, which held the web at an absolute standstill for five straight years. Sorry, no, not an absolute standstill. Windows XP Service Pack 2 tweaked how an HTTP header was handled. That was the most significant movement in the front-end development world in a five year period. Because of Internet Explorer. Compare Safari 12 to Safari 17. Now imagine we were still stuck with Safari 12. That’s what it would be like if Safari “dragged their feet” like Microsoft did with Internet Explorer. They aren’t the same thing, not even remotely close. Anybody saying that “Safari is the new IE” clearly does not remember what Internet Explorer did to the industry, especially if they are saying it because of things like Safari won’t let websites vibrate your phone.
  - toyg 3y ago
    The difference is simply a function of smarter leadership and experience. Of course nobody, today, would act exactly like MS did - that would make it trivial for people to see their game. Instead, Apple gives you something to show they're trying, "honest, guv" - but in ebbs and flows, only when pushed, and slower than everyone else despite being the most profitable company on the block. To be honest, nobody would really care how many releases they push or how many features they push, if only they let other browsers compete on iOS. But they don't; so they carry a responsibility to be at the forefront of standards and look absolutely beyond reproach - which, at the moment, is not the case.
    - JimDabell 3y ago
      > The difference is simply a function of smarter leadership and experience. Look, the difference is glaringly obvious: Microsoft brought front-end development to a standstill for five long years. Apple has not. Apple has continued to add features, standards support, and interoperability bug fixes year after year like clockwork. This isn’t a matter of nuance. This isn’t Apple being “smarter”. Apple fundamentally has not done what Microsoft did in any way, shape, or form. The two situations are extremely dissimilar.