4 ms·

> it has certainly made me be more careful in the comments I've made. Isn't this the ultimate form of groupthink?

by ot 15y ago

chris_wot 15y ago
Not really. The purpose of this site is for news about Hackers and startups, or as the FAQ says "Anything that good hackers would find interesting". One of the issues with snark is that it doesn't foster appropriate communication - instead it makes people get defensive or react badly. There are ways of stating disagreement without being nasty, defensive or arrogant. It's a good thing :-) As in RL, thinking before you speak is a wise way to conduct yourself on HN.
- anthonyb 15y ago
  I disagree. There are plenty of snarky people on HN who know what they're talking about and aren't afraid to tell you. Unfortunately, that means that they get a disproportionate share of downvoting groupthink. Perhaps the saddest example (for us) that I can think of is CPlatypus (http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=CPlatypus http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=CPlatypus). Apparently a start up veteran, works at RedHat - I don't know what his blog is. I trawled back through his comments when I noticed he was hellbanned, and they were all pretty insightful. He hasn't been back in the last 30 days or so.
  - chris_wot 15y ago
    If they have responded with an inflammatory reply, I understand why they have been downvoted. I agree with you about the contributor CPlatypus, he did have a lot of insightful comments. However, he also frequently accused others (including pg!) of being liars, etc. For the record, the hell banning practices are extremely disconcerting on Hacker News. On the original site that hellbanning was designed for, it was to slow down trolls, not those who responded in a controversial way. That there is no way of appealing to being hell banned is definitely a negative of contributing to this site: you'll never know you that you need to change your behaviour, and there is no way of fixing the issue - even if you were an insightful contributor such as CPlatypus. Anyway, I think I've said my piece on this matter - I don't want to be controversial myself so I'll refrain from commenting more on the practices of those who are in ultimate control of this site.
    - anthonyb 15y ago
      For the record, his suggestion to openly commit to not use patents was taken up recently by Twitter and widely applauded, although he copped an amazing amount of flak at the time. I found his blog though, so all is not lost: http://pl.atyp.us/wordpress/ http://pl.atyp.us/wordpress/ In this case, hellbanning just demonstrates that HN is run by a private cabal. Whoever it is can run it in their own way I guess, but without any oversight they're likely to ban people for the wrong reason and with no recourse, and doing so doesn't contribute to things like voting quality.
    - eternalban 15y ago
      > including pg! gasp! /s
    - pgisaliar 15y ago
      pg is a documented liar and snake oil salesman.
jasonlotito 15y ago
Often times the people complaining about groupthink are also the ones acting immature. If you inject in your comment the feel of someone trying to rebel ("I know I'm going to get down voted..." or "I hate to be that guy..."), you're already starting off wrong. Act the part of an adult and you'll be treated like one. I've found that if I spend a few minutes to justify my belief, and approach the discussion as that of peers rather than assuming my opinion is all that matters, things go very well, even when we disagree. So yeah, HN does have an element of groupthink: that those who are disrespectful are not welcome here, regardless of their opinion. Most likely, their opinion can be found in other comments but written by someone that is looking to engage in an adult conversation and not out to belittle or insult the rest of us.
- sbierwagen 15y ago
  This is correct. Essentially every single one of my 500+ comments is expressing disagreement, yet I only get downvoted if I do something stupid. On HN, the submissions run media hot (since submissions can only be upvoted, not downvoted) while comments run media cold. (where logic and reasonableness are much more highly valued than in the submissions)
- devgutt 15y ago
  Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". Know what, i like all kind of comments, especially the harsh ones. I just ignore the stupid parts and go on. I don´t read the comments emotionally.
  - jasonlotito 15y ago
    > Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". That's an excuse that unprofessional people use to try to excuse their poor behavior. It's the same problem that "brogrammers" are having when they offend people with their "tits or gtfo" attitude. Just to be sure, I'm not intending to imply you are like these people. And don't confuse HN's brand of entrepreneurs with rebels. They are far from rebels. They are playing a well established, very old game. Their attitude is not a result of the rebellion against any system (they are playing within the system), but rather the very simple fact of where they came from and their upbringing. The common entrepreneur is professional, polite, and intelligent. They aren't pretending to be a rebel. They are starting a company. While I applaud your ability to read past the rude comments, the simple fact is, this is a discussion. And rude comments are meant to be that: rude. And many people here want to promote civil discourse, not rude, emotional, immature outbursts.

> it has certainly made me be more careful in the comments I've made. Isn't this the ultimate form of groupthink?

by ot 15y ago

> it has certainly made me be more careful in the comments I've made. Isn't this the ultimate form of groupthink?

Not really. The purpose of this site is for news about Hackers and startups, or as the FAQ says "Anything that good hackers would find interesting". One of the issues with snark is that it doesn't foster appropriate communication - instead it makes people get defensive or react badly. There are ways of stating disagreement without being nasty, defensive or arrogant. It's a good thing :-) As in RL, thinking before you speak is a wise way to conduct yourself on HN.

anthonyb 15y ago
I disagree. There are plenty of snarky people on HN who know what they're talking about and aren't afraid to tell you. Unfortunately, that means that they get a disproportionate share of downvoting groupthink. Perhaps the saddest example (for us) that I can think of is CPlatypus (http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=CPlatypus http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=CPlatypus). Apparently a start up veteran, works at RedHat - I don't know what his blog is. I trawled back through his comments when I noticed he was hellbanned, and they were all pretty insightful. He hasn't been back in the last 30 days or so.
- chris_wot 15y ago
  If they have responded with an inflammatory reply, I understand why they have been downvoted. I agree with you about the contributor CPlatypus, he did have a lot of insightful comments. However, he also frequently accused others (including pg!) of being liars, etc. For the record, the hell banning practices are extremely disconcerting on Hacker News. On the original site that hellbanning was designed for, it was to slow down trolls, not those who responded in a controversial way. That there is no way of appealing to being hell banned is definitely a negative of contributing to this site: you'll never know you that you need to change your behaviour, and there is no way of fixing the issue - even if you were an insightful contributor such as CPlatypus. Anyway, I think I've said my piece on this matter - I don't want to be controversial myself so I'll refrain from commenting more on the practices of those who are in ultimate control of this site.
  - anthonyb 15y ago
    For the record, his suggestion to openly commit to not use patents was taken up recently by Twitter and widely applauded, although he copped an amazing amount of flak at the time. I found his blog though, so all is not lost: http://pl.atyp.us/wordpress/ http://pl.atyp.us/wordpress/ In this case, hellbanning just demonstrates that HN is run by a private cabal. Whoever it is can run it in their own way I guess, but without any oversight they're likely to ban people for the wrong reason and with no recourse, and doing so doesn't contribute to things like voting quality.
  - eternalban 15y ago
    > including pg! gasp! /s
  - pgisaliar 15y ago
    pg is a documented liar and snake oil salesman.

jasonlotito 15y ago

Often times the people complaining about groupthink are also the ones acting immature. If you inject in your comment the feel of someone trying to rebel ("I know I'm going to get down voted..." or "I hate to be that guy..."), you're already starting off wrong. Act the part of an adult and you'll be treated like one. I've found that if I spend a few minutes to justify my belief, and approach the discussion as that of peers rather than assuming my opinion is all that matters, things go very well, even when we disagree. So yeah, HN does have an element of groupthink: that those who are disrespectful are not welcome here, regardless of their opinion. Most likely, their opinion can be found in other comments but written by someone that is looking to engage in an adult conversation and not out to belittle or insult the rest of us.

sbierwagen 15y ago
This is correct. Essentially every single one of my 500+ comments is expressing disagreement, yet I only get downvoted if I do something stupid. On HN, the submissions run media hot (since submissions can only be upvoted, not downvoted) while comments run media cold. (where logic and reasonableness are much more highly valued than in the submissions)
devgutt 15y ago
Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". Know what, i like all kind of comments, especially the harsh ones. I just ignore the stupid parts and go on. I don´t read the comments emotionally.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  > Entrepreneurs are rebels. But in HN you have to contain yourself to not "hurt anyone". That's an excuse that unprofessional people use to try to excuse their poor behavior. It's the same problem that "brogrammers" are having when they offend people with their "tits or gtfo" attitude. Just to be sure, I'm not intending to imply you are like these people. And don't confuse HN's brand of entrepreneurs with rebels. They are far from rebels. They are playing a well established, very old game. Their attitude is not a result of the rebellion against any system (they are playing within the system), but rather the very simple fact of where they came from and their upbringing. The common entrepreneur is professional, polite, and intelligent. They aren't pretending to be a rebel. They are starting a company. While I applaud your ability to read past the rude comments, the simple fact is, this is a discussion. And rude comments are meant to be that: rude. And many people here want to promote civil discourse, not rude, emotional, immature outbursts.