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> Too many people are enrolling in CS programs these days because they want a quick ticket to a cushy tech job Or maybe, people are enrolling in CS programs th

by qez2 3y ago

> Too many people are enrolling in CS programs these days because they want a quick ticket to a cushy tech job Or maybe, people are enrolling in CS programs these days because they want to learn how to program. Which is a perfectly appropriate skill to teach. The fact that schools fail to teach it is their defect.

oytis 3y ago
In Germany there are two distinct kinds of higher education institutions addressing that. Vocational universities that teach skills in a very practical manner, and generally more prestigious "plain" universities that spend more time on fundamentals (as in scientific foundations), and teach under assumption that alumni will contribute to academia themselves - even if this assumption turns out false in most cases. In addition to that there are also vocational programs in software engineering that don't count as higher education at all.
- randomdata 3y ago
  The same is true in America. It is just that there was that wildly successful marketing campaign a few decades ago that went something along the lines of "Go to university or you will be forever left to flip burgers", so most people won't even stop to consider vocational training from traditional vocational schools, and instead are always pushing for universities to become the vocational schools instead.
moon_moon 3y ago
Being able to program in the context of computer science is like being able to build an airplane in the context of aeronautics. If one is not interested in things that are foundational to the context they operate in, why are they there?
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  Do car mechanics and car hobbyists take a semester to study Carnot cycles, thermodynamics, and entropy?
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Only if those subjects interest them. Otherwise, like the previous commenter asks, why would they bother?
  - paxys 3y ago
    Car mechanics aren't enrolling in mechanical engineering programs and then complaining that they aren't being taught how to fix a car.
randomdata 3y ago
If people were enrolling in physics programs because they wanted to learn to cut hair, would it be prudent for the program to shift focus to hairdressing? Or, perhaps, it is the students that would be better off recognizing that if hair cutting is what they want to learn, they would be better off in a hairdressing program? It is not like there aren't countless schools that do offer programming programs. In fact, I suspect you will find that there are more schools offering programming programs than there are schools offering CS programs.
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Universities offer mechanical engineering degrees, not just physics degrees. In the same way, they need to offer software engineering degrees, not just CS degrees. Some do, but too few.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Must be a regional thing? It appears that all of the major universities in this country offer software engineering programs. That said, someone wanting to learn how to program would be best served by a community college/vocational school.
  - vitus 3y ago
    As far as I can tell, most of the "major" universities offer one CS course (sometimes two) on software engineering but no degrees (e.g. Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Princeton, UIUC, Cornell). CMU, UT, and UW are the few prestigious schools that I could find that explicitly offer a Master's in Software Engineering (but no undergrad degrees, certainly). Other than that, Georgia Tech offers an undergrad certificate (3 classes). Berkeley apparently has an online program for a Master of Molecular Science and Software Engineering, wherein you mostly take chemistry classes along with one data science course and one CS course.
jjav 3y ago
> The fact that schools fail to teach it is their defect. Of course it is not a defect to teach the subject matter of the degree. Teaching programming is also a perfectly nice skill to teach, but it's not computer science. You wouldn't enroll in mechanical engineering and complain they don't teach how to change oil in your car. However, equivalently, if you do study mechanical engineering and aerodynamics, you could then go into a career in car mechanics where you can get much farther (e.g. Formula 1 car development) than if you studied only fixing cars at a trade school. The problem with this field is that software engineering and computer science and trade-school level programming all get conflated when they are distinct but related fields. Maybe it will take many more decades of maturing before the field sorts these out properly, such as has already happened in more mature fields that have been around for centuries.

by qez2 3y ago

oytis 3y ago

In Germany there are two distinct kinds of higher education institutions addressing that. Vocational universities that teach skills in a very practical manner, and generally more prestigious "plain" universities that spend more time on fundamentals (as in scientific foundations), and teach under assumption that alumni will contribute to academia themselves - even if this assumption turns out false in most cases. In addition to that there are also vocational programs in software engineering that don't count as higher education at all.

randomdata 3y ago
The same is true in America. It is just that there was that wildly successful marketing campaign a few decades ago that went something along the lines of "Go to university or you will be forever left to flip burgers", so most people won't even stop to consider vocational training from traditional vocational schools, and instead are always pushing for universities to become the vocational schools instead.

moon_moon 3y ago

Being able to program in the context of computer science is like being able to build an airplane in the context of aeronautics. If one is not interested in things that are foundational to the context they operate in, why are they there?

pavel_lishin 3y ago
Do car mechanics and car hobbyists take a semester to study Carnot cycles, thermodynamics, and entropy?
- randomdata 3y ago
  Only if those subjects interest them. Otherwise, like the previous commenter asks, why would they bother?
- paxys 3y ago
  Car mechanics aren't enrolling in mechanical engineering programs and then complaining that they aren't being taught how to fix a car.

randomdata 3y ago

If people were enrolling in physics programs because they wanted to learn to cut hair, would it be prudent for the program to shift focus to hairdressing? Or, perhaps, it is the students that would be better off recognizing that if hair cutting is what they want to learn, they would be better off in a hairdressing program? It is not like there aren't countless schools that do offer programming programs. In fact, I suspect you will find that there are more schools offering programming programs than there are schools offering CS programs.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

Universities offer mechanical engineering degrees, not just physics degrees. In the same way, they need to offer software engineering degrees, not just CS degrees. Some do, but too few.

randomdata 3y ago
Must be a regional thing? It appears that all of the major universities in this country offer software engineering programs. That said, someone wanting to learn how to program would be best served by a community college/vocational school.
- vitus 3y ago
  As far as I can tell, most of the "major" universities offer one CS course (sometimes two) on software engineering but no degrees (e.g. Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, Princeton, UIUC, Cornell). CMU, UT, and UW are the few prestigious schools that I could find that explicitly offer a Master's in Software Engineering (but no undergrad degrees, certainly). Other than that, Georgia Tech offers an undergrad certificate (3 classes). Berkeley apparently has an online program for a Master of Molecular Science and Software Engineering, wherein you mostly take chemistry classes along with one data science course and one CS course.

jjav 3y ago

> The fact that schools fail to teach it is their defect. Of course it is not a defect to teach the subject matter of the degree. Teaching programming is also a perfectly nice skill to teach, but it's not computer science. You wouldn't enroll in mechanical engineering and complain they don't teach how to change oil in your car. However, equivalently, if you do study mechanical engineering and aerodynamics, you could then go into a career in car mechanics where you can get much farther (e.g. Formula 1 car development) than if you studied only fixing cars at a trade school. The problem with this field is that software engineering and computer science and trade-school level programming all get conflated when they are distinct but related fields. Maybe it will take many more decades of maturing before the field sorts these out properly, such as has already happened in more mature fields that have been around for centuries.