3 ms·

> But Apple has not been crippling the web Well, they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Expl

by toyg 3y ago

> But Apple has not been crippling the web Well, they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago. IIRC, there are also some limitations in what web apps launched from the home screen can actually do, which are not in regular Safari - but I've not looked at this in a long time so I could be wrong. What I do remember very clearly is that the common consensus, as reflected in data from app developers, is that people just don't know (or don't want to use) the "pin to home screen" feature. One could argue that Apple should, maybe, sprinkle on that feature a bit of the effort they lavishly pour on emojis, so that more people could be enticed to use PWAs. That would go some way towards reassuring developers that they are not slaves to the AppStore.

JimDabell 3y ago
> Well, they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago. It’s entirely different. After Microsoft killed the competition and gained >90% market share, they disbanded the Internet Explorer developer team for five entire years. Apple releases a new major version of Safari every year like clockwork and pushes people hard to update. > What I do remember very clearly is that the common consensus, as reflected in data from app developers, is that people just don't know (or don't want to use) the "pin to home screen" feature. What data? The internal data I’ve seen across ~500 community apps is that when given a choice, two thirds of people use the iOS app, a quarter of people use the Android app, and about 10% use the PWA. And that’s across all users, including desktop. “Don’t know” and “don’t want to use” are two entirely different things. If people preferred PWAs and it was just down to Apple holding them back, there wouldn’t be any such thing as an Android app; people would just use PWAs on that platform instead. People don’t install PWAs because they don’t want to.
- toyg 3y ago
  > Apple releases a new major version of Safari every year like clockwork and pushes people hard to update. That's largely a byproduct of their attempt to keep support costs low by forcing yearly upgrades of the entire OS. Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else (while being 10 times wealthier...), I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. > “Don’t know” and “don’t want to use” are two entirely different things. Come on now - discoverability and education are things. If Apple wanted to, they would make that feature so easy and promote it so heavily, that everyone would do it or at least know how to do it. > If people preferred PWAs and it was just down to Apple holding them back Don't strawman me, I never said that. I said that Apple is not making any effort to change a status quo where consumers are not keen on the feature, which tallies with your experience. There is nothing stopping them from aiming their reality distortion field at the feature, as a service to developers.
  - JimDabell 3y ago
    > Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. You can’t measure progress by counting releases. > I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. They aren’t though. Take a look at the Interop 2023 dashboard: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable Or just read through the WebKit blog: https://webkit.org/blog/ https://webkit.org/blog/ They are getting loads done. > The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. Your exact words were: “they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago” and my point is that it’s very unlike that.
    - toyg 3y ago
      They picked up the slack only after they were shamed multiple times, including by websites like https://issafarithenewie.com/ https://issafarithenewie.com/ (which now reflects their progress, very honestly). A brief look at items from the last several years will return lots of pretty bad press. > They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. Just to mention one, WebRTC took 7 years to go from the first Firefox implementation to Safari. Chrome had it less than 2 years after FF, so I guess not 10x but 3x-4x - still a very significant lag, which is definitely not explainable by lack of resources.
      - JimDabell 3y ago
        But that’s just it – you are just mentioning one. No mention of the many, many improvements that were made. Safari has been advancing steadily every single year since it was first released. Which makes it an entirely different situation to Internet Explorer, which held the web at an absolute standstill for five straight years. Sorry, no, not an absolute standstill. Windows XP Service Pack 2 tweaked how an HTTP header was handled. That was the most significant movement in the front-end development world in a five year period. Because of Internet Explorer. Compare Safari 12 to Safari 17. Now imagine we were still stuck with Safari 12. That’s what it would be like if Safari “dragged their feet” like Microsoft did with Internet Explorer. They aren’t the same thing, not even remotely close. Anybody saying that “Safari is the new IE” clearly does not remember what Internet Explorer did to the industry, especially if they are saying it because of things like Safari won’t let websites vibrate your phone.

by toyg 3y ago

JimDabell 3y ago

> Well, they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago. It’s entirely different. After Microsoft killed the competition and gained >90% market share, they disbanded the Internet Explorer developer team for five entire years. Apple releases a new major version of Safari every year like clockwork and pushes people hard to update. > What I do remember very clearly is that the common consensus, as reflected in data from app developers, is that people just don't know (or don't want to use) the "pin to home screen" feature. What data? The internal data I’ve seen across ~500 community apps is that when given a choice, two thirds of people use the iOS app, a quarter of people use the Android app, and about 10% use the PWA. And that’s across all users, including desktop. “Don’t know” and “don’t want to use” are two entirely different things. If people preferred PWAs and it was just down to Apple holding them back, there wouldn’t be any such thing as an Android app; people would just use PWAs on that platform instead. People don’t install PWAs because they don’t want to.

toyg 3y ago
> Apple releases a new major version of Safari every year like clockwork and pushes people hard to update. That's largely a byproduct of their attempt to keep support costs low by forcing yearly upgrades of the entire OS. Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else (while being 10 times wealthier...), I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. > “Don’t know” and “don’t want to use” are two entirely different things. Come on now - discoverability and education are things. If Apple wanted to, they would make that feature so easy and promote it so heavily, that everyone would do it or at least know how to do it. > If people preferred PWAs and it was just down to Apple holding them back Don't strawman me, I never said that. I said that Apple is not making any effort to change a status quo where consumers are not keen on the feature, which tallies with your experience. There is nothing stopping them from aiming their reality distortion field at the feature, as a service to developers.
- JimDabell 3y ago
  > Other browser makers release 10 times more often (literally!). When you're 10 times slower than everyone else They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. You can’t measure progress by counting releases. > I think it's legitimate to say you're dragging your feet. They aren’t though. Take a look at the Interop 2023 dashboard: https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable https://wpt.fyi/interop-2023?stable Or just read through the WebKit blog: https://webkit.org/blog/ https://webkit.org/blog/ They are getting loads done. > The fact that they're not as atrociously bad as Microsoft was at its worst, doesn't mean they are not bad. Your exact words were: “they definitely drag their feet on keeping Safari up to date, not unlike what Microsoft did with Internet Explorer 20 years ago” and my point is that it’s very unlike that.
  - toyg 3y ago
    They picked up the slack only after they were shamed multiple times, including by websites like https://issafarithenewie.com/ https://issafarithenewie.com/ (which now reflects their progress, very honestly). A brief look at items from the last several years will return lots of pretty bad press. > They aren’t ten times slower than everybody else. Just to mention one, WebRTC took 7 years to go from the first Firefox implementation to Safari. Chrome had it less than 2 years after FF, so I guess not 10x but 3x-4x - still a very significant lag, which is definitely not explainable by lack of resources.
    - JimDabell 3y ago
      But that’s just it – you are just mentioning one. No mention of the many, many improvements that were made. Safari has been advancing steadily every single year since it was first released. Which makes it an entirely different situation to Internet Explorer, which held the web at an absolute standstill for five straight years. Sorry, no, not an absolute standstill. Windows XP Service Pack 2 tweaked how an HTTP header was handled. That was the most significant movement in the front-end development world in a five year period. Because of Internet Explorer. Compare Safari 12 to Safari 17. Now imagine we were still stuck with Safari 12. That’s what it would be like if Safari “dragged their feet” like Microsoft did with Internet Explorer. They aren’t the same thing, not even remotely close. Anybody saying that “Safari is the new IE” clearly does not remember what Internet Explorer did to the industry, especially if they are saying it because of things like Safari won’t let websites vibrate your phone.