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> People scan be quite entitled and want to boss everyone around and tell them the project is run wrong - if you don’t actively run at least some of them off th

> People scan be quite entitled and want to boss everyone around and tell them the project is run wrong - if you don’t actively run at least some of them off the devs will curl up and disappear. As an Eastern European I always found fascinating how many Westerners are struggling hard with this. To me and many of my peers (and apparently to Linus Torvalds and a good chunk of the entire Nordic culture, probably?) it's the easiest thing in the world to say something like: "Listen up dickhead, I do this in my free time. If you don't like the direction of the project or the urgency with which your issues are [not] being addressed, you are free to not use it, and it also costs you nothing to not comment at all. I got better things to do than to reply to entitled cunts, now piss off." It's very amusing what a huge drama many Westerners make out of just... being direct. Honest. Straight to the point. "But he won't ever contribute and he might infect others with the opinion that the project leaderships is toxic!" OK. That's a price I am willing to pay. My mental health > the second-hand opinion of people who were only 0.1% likely to contribute anyway. The math is very easy yet so many Westerners struggle so much with these [to me and many] mega obvious solutions, like "be a bit of a dick when necessary". This is really very similar to the discussions I had with a lot of women long time ago. It goes like this: they tell me: "I have to go tell X and Y about event A because otherwise Z will tell them lies and they'll think something wrong about me." To which I reply with a cold expression: "Then you don't need X and Y in your life, if they can be so easily influenced by lies and won't even ask you about what truly happened." Their expressions were priceless. The cognitive dissonance can hit us all VERY hard. Back to the topic at hand, yes, I firmly believe all open-contribution projects need a Linus type of person. It's also a fact that many devs are introverted and can be chased away by entitled and insolent loud people. So somebody must put a shield in front of the devs.

lbalazscs 3y ago
I guess you missed the part where Linus Torvalds has apologized for years of being a jerk. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apologizes-for-years-of-being-a-jerk-takes-time-off-to-learn-empathy/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apolo...
- pdimitar 3y ago
  I did not, but I have my doubts as to whether he was made to do it or if he truly meant it. I tend to believe in the former because it's always accompanied by "stepping back for a while" and "get help on how to behave better". Seems like a standard procedure after somebody manages to overpower you (in whatever hierarchy they have there). Were cursing and expletives necessary? Absolutely no. They don't drive any point forward. But: is showing people the door when they are entitled or unprofessional necessary? Very, very much yes. Feel free to read into the article as your beliefs incline you to. I've known many people like Linus and they don't get "change of hearts". They simply get sick and tired of being misunderstood and just remove themselves from the situations that cause it.
  - V_Terranova_Jr 3y ago
    There's more to the Linus-style jerk phenomenon than just telling entitled people to piss off (I would be reluctant to call that being a jerk if that's all it was). See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33058906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33058906 for an example thread and associated comments. If you're just ranting or passing off subjective POVs as truth and obvious and those disagreeing with you as doing so out of incompetence or malfeasance, that isn't being direct, honest, or straight to the point. It's being a dick. I've seen brilliant colleagues for whom I have the utmost technical admiration completely fail to improve bad designs implemented by others, because the brilliant person was so dickish about how they communicated to others.
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      I don't see anything offensive in this: > And the reality is that there are no absolute guarantees. Ever. The "Rust is safe" is not some kind of absolute guarantee of code safety. Never has been. Anybody who believes that should probably re-take their kindergarten year, and stop believing in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. It's an exaggeration. Means that he disagrees with people who blindly repeat something that, on the level Linus operates, is objectively not true. I have no context on the broader discussion but it seems both sides haven't equalized the plane on which they discuss. In that context I'll agree Linus was a dick. But, consider what was said upthread: many high-profile open source contributors hear the same crap every day. No matter how gracious you start off, you'll start rolling your eyes and ultimately resort to sarcasm. And some go even further: start insulting. Ask anyone who works in retail. So again, to me Linus' statement basically uses an exaggeration to illustrate a point: "Stop repeating something as if it's unequivocally true. It's true only in your context (userland application development). It's not true in kernel context." That people get offended by that says more about them than about Linus. Finally, I'll agree it can and should be toned down. Not disputing that. But it's also not so difficult to extract out the true point in such a rant and move on.
jodrellblank 3y ago
> "Westerners are struggling hard with this [...] it's the easiest thing in the world" But why pride yourself on taking the easy way out? It isn't being honest and direct and straight to the point, it's a power move being deliberately rude/offensive/cruel hiding behind "just being honest and direct". Which only works as long as you have the power behind the powerslam putdown (in a personal project you do) and can deal with the consequences of cutting people off (which you say you are willing to). For everyone who doesn't have that power, and needs to work with others, it's not an option. Compare a physically large man saying "I find it funny that people don't just stare others down and threaten them like I do" and thinking that will work for everyone in every situation. If that's your project selection criteria - "don't be thin skinned, man up, grow a pair!" - it's not-meritocratic; like a selection based on wealth or social class or accent or nationality isn't. If you want X and Y's skills (public project) or contacts or signoff (professional work) then you will have to face their susceptibility to Z's manipulations and deal with it. If you need help to do more work than you can do alone, you will have to work with other people's issues. "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go a long way, go together". > To which I reply with a cold expression: > Their expressions were priceless. That story shape is a perfect fit for "everybody clapped" meme, you feel superior to the stupid women who didn't even think of this power move, and wait for your applause. Were their priceless expressions "you solved my problem, my hero!" or were they "you have no clue that my life is different to yours and with no attempt to empathise or understand, you expect the first thing you thought of will solve my problems and want me to be impressed?" Women generally have less power in society, in companies, far less physical intimidation, less respect, fewer options, and need to depend more on social networks and support and building consensus to get along in life or get things done. Cutting off the network and getting a reputation as difficult to be friends/work with risks a lot more for women than it does for you. That "I'm colder, more vicious, than you so I win. Empathy and emotions are weakness." is so ... last season. > "It's also a fact that many devs are introverted and can be chased away by entitled and insolent loud people. So somebody must put a shield in front of the devs." It isn't a shield, it's a counter-offensive. Many devs don't want their workplace turned into a battlezone by people trying to shout the loudest. Again, fine for your personal project, but having a shouty vicious bouncer is turning away the porentially useful contributions of unknown people who don't want to fight their way into that kind of workplace. Consider @dang here at HN doesn't take the easy way out of shouting people down, swearing at them, putting them in their place; instead he patiently links the HN rules and politely explains what he's doing and why (your account is doing A, against the rules here, will be banned in this time, please do this or that specific thing), over and over and over. Trying to build a community of disparate people is much harder than being a dictator who can tell disagreeable people to piss off. Is it any wonder people who are trying to do that, are struggling with it?

lbalazscs 3y ago

I guess you missed the part where Linus Torvalds has apologized for years of being a jerk. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apologizes-for-years-of-being-a-jerk-takes-time-off-to-learn-empathy/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/09/linus-torvalds-apolo...

pdimitar 3y ago
I did not, but I have my doubts as to whether he was made to do it or if he truly meant it. I tend to believe in the former because it's always accompanied by "stepping back for a while" and "get help on how to behave better". Seems like a standard procedure after somebody manages to overpower you (in whatever hierarchy they have there). Were cursing and expletives necessary? Absolutely no. They don't drive any point forward. But: is showing people the door when they are entitled or unprofessional necessary? Very, very much yes. Feel free to read into the article as your beliefs incline you to. I've known many people like Linus and they don't get "change of hearts". They simply get sick and tired of being misunderstood and just remove themselves from the situations that cause it.
- V_Terranova_Jr 3y ago
  There's more to the Linus-style jerk phenomenon than just telling entitled people to piss off (I would be reluctant to call that being a jerk if that's all it was). See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33058906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33058906 for an example thread and associated comments. If you're just ranting or passing off subjective POVs as truth and obvious and those disagreeing with you as doing so out of incompetence or malfeasance, that isn't being direct, honest, or straight to the point. It's being a dick. I've seen brilliant colleagues for whom I have the utmost technical admiration completely fail to improve bad designs implemented by others, because the brilliant person was so dickish about how they communicated to others.
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    I don't see anything offensive in this: > And the reality is that there are no absolute guarantees. Ever. The "Rust is safe" is not some kind of absolute guarantee of code safety. Never has been. Anybody who believes that should probably re-take their kindergarten year, and stop believing in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. It's an exaggeration. Means that he disagrees with people who blindly repeat something that, on the level Linus operates, is objectively not true. I have no context on the broader discussion but it seems both sides haven't equalized the plane on which they discuss. In that context I'll agree Linus was a dick. But, consider what was said upthread: many high-profile open source contributors hear the same crap every day. No matter how gracious you start off, you'll start rolling your eyes and ultimately resort to sarcasm. And some go even further: start insulting. Ask anyone who works in retail. So again, to me Linus' statement basically uses an exaggeration to illustrate a point: "Stop repeating something as if it's unequivocally true. It's true only in your context (userland application development). It's not true in kernel context." That people get offended by that says more about them than about Linus. Finally, I'll agree it can and should be toned down. Not disputing that. But it's also not so difficult to extract out the true point in such a rant and move on.

jodrellblank 3y ago

> "Westerners are struggling hard with this [...] it's the easiest thing in the world" But why pride yourself on taking the easy way out? It isn't being honest and direct and straight to the point, it's a power move being deliberately rude/offensive/cruel hiding behind "just being honest and direct". Which only works as long as you have the power behind the powerslam putdown (in a personal project you do) and can deal with the consequences of cutting people off (which you say you are willing to). For everyone who doesn't have that power, and needs to work with others, it's not an option. Compare a physically large man saying "I find it funny that people don't just stare others down and threaten them like I do" and thinking that will work for everyone in every situation. If that's your project selection criteria - "don't be thin skinned, man up, grow a pair!" - it's not-meritocratic; like a selection based on wealth or social class or accent or nationality isn't. If you want X and Y's skills (public project) or contacts or signoff (professional work) then you will have to face their susceptibility to Z's manipulations and deal with it. If you need help to do more work than you can do alone, you will have to work with other people's issues. "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go a long way, go together". > To which I reply with a cold expression: > Their expressions were priceless. That story shape is a perfect fit for "everybody clapped" meme, you feel superior to the stupid women who didn't even think of this power move, and wait for your applause. Were their priceless expressions "you solved my problem, my hero!" or were they "you have no clue that my life is different to yours and with no attempt to empathise or understand, you expect the first thing you thought of will solve my problems and want me to be impressed?" Women generally have less power in society, in companies, far less physical intimidation, less respect, fewer options, and need to depend more on social networks and support and building consensus to get along in life or get things done. Cutting off the network and getting a reputation as difficult to be friends/work with risks a lot more for women than it does for you. That "I'm colder, more vicious, than you so I win. Empathy and emotions are weakness." is so ... last season. > "It's also a fact that many devs are introverted and can be chased away by entitled and insolent loud people. So somebody must put a shield in front of the devs." It isn't a shield, it's a counter-offensive. Many devs don't want their workplace turned into a battlezone by people trying to shout the loudest. Again, fine for your personal project, but having a shouty vicious bouncer is turning away the porentially useful contributions of unknown people who don't want to fight their way into that kind of workplace. Consider @dang here at HN doesn't take the easy way out of shouting people down, swearing at them, putting them in their place; instead he patiently links the HN rules and politely explains what he's doing and why (your account is doing A, against the rules here, will be banned in this time, please do this or that specific thing), over and over and over. Trying to build a community of disparate people is much harder than being a dictator who can tell disagreeable people to piss off. Is it any wonder people who are trying to do that, are struggling with it?