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Some things can actually be taught... some can't. To program something, you need two things: - to learn the language (syntax, rules, specifics) - to break up

Some things can actually be taught... some can't. To program something, you need two things: - to learn the language (syntax, rules, specifics) - to break up the real-world problem into smaller step-by-step blocks, that can then be written in a chosen programming language. The first part (language) is simple and can be taught in schools. But some people are just unable to do enough mental abstract processing to do the second part. I've intentionally chosen programming as a first example (because of where we are), but this is true for human-languages too.. rules of the language are simple, articulating and in a more extreme example, writing a book require more than that. Same for woodworking... saw, drill, chisel, router, sander... simple. Being able to mentally transform wood into something useful in your head is hard. I have no problems with coding pretty much anything, given enough resources (time), but writing a short story (and other texts) in school was always a pain that involved a lot of counting words (back in my time, written by hand on a piece of paper) and "oh shit, I need two more paragraphs of something".

Ensorceled 3y ago
> But some people are just unable to do enough mental abstract processing to do the second part. Even accepting that this is true, not teaching it because some people may not be able to learn it and instead leaving everybody to figure it out for themselves, some of whom might have figured it out with help, is really fucking shitty gatekeeping behaviour and you should be embarrassed for defending it.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  Gatekeeping means limiting access to something. I never said that we should forbid kids from learning programming. What i was saying, and am saying again is, that programming is a thing that will be done by a small percentage of students, and having a mandatory course in that subject is useless, because those who can't do programming will only "suffer", and those who can, won't learn much, because otherwise the majority would fail the class. Make it an elective, sure.. Mandatory? No. A class about basic finances? That should be mandatory.. everyone will get a job, work, pay taxes, save for stuff, get a loan, have unexpected expenditures, etc. Everyone should know at last the basics. A general computing class (internet, emails, documents and basic editing, etc.), sure. Coding, no.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    The opportunity to debug something is something everyone will encounter at some point. Not necessarily with respect to code, but the debugging process applies to all things. Surely that is a more useful use of time than a dedicated basic finance class; a topic that is already thoroughly covered in the standard math curriculum?
  - PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
    To add on to this, in college I knew a woman who could read code just fine but could not write it. It was really odd, but I paired with her (she was 2 years ahead of me) and basically had to write the entire thing myself. But once I was done she understood it perfectly, to your point about abstract mental processing, she just couldn't come up with the algorithms on her own.
  - Ensorceled 3y ago
    > Gatekeeping means limiting access to something. I never said that we should forbid kids from learning programming. Not giving people the training that is required to be a good programmer is gatekeeping. Not having a mandatory programming course is gatekeeping. It prevents people who don't have exposure to programming outside of school from even contemplating that career, mostly people already disadvantaged.

Ensorceled 3y ago

> But some people are just unable to do enough mental abstract processing to do the second part. Even accepting that this is true, not teaching it because some people may not be able to learn it and instead leaving everybody to figure it out for themselves, some of whom might have figured it out with help, is really fucking shitty gatekeeping behaviour and you should be embarrassed for defending it.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
Gatekeeping means limiting access to something. I never said that we should forbid kids from learning programming. What i was saying, and am saying again is, that programming is a thing that will be done by a small percentage of students, and having a mandatory course in that subject is useless, because those who can't do programming will only "suffer", and those who can, won't learn much, because otherwise the majority would fail the class. Make it an elective, sure.. Mandatory? No. A class about basic finances? That should be mandatory.. everyone will get a job, work, pay taxes, save for stuff, get a loan, have unexpected expenditures, etc. Everyone should know at last the basics. A general computing class (internet, emails, documents and basic editing, etc.), sure. Coding, no.
- randomdata 3y ago
  The opportunity to debug something is something everyone will encounter at some point. Not necessarily with respect to code, but the debugging process applies to all things. Surely that is a more useful use of time than a dedicated basic finance class; a topic that is already thoroughly covered in the standard math curriculum?
- PH95VuimJjqBqy 3y ago
  To add on to this, in college I knew a woman who could read code just fine but could not write it. It was really odd, but I paired with her (she was 2 years ahead of me) and basically had to write the entire thing myself. But once I was done she understood it perfectly, to your point about abstract mental processing, she just couldn't come up with the algorithms on her own.
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  > Gatekeeping means limiting access to something. I never said that we should forbid kids from learning programming. Not giving people the training that is required to be a good programmer is gatekeeping. Not having a mandatory programming course is gatekeeping. It prevents people who don't have exposure to programming outside of school from even contemplating that career, mostly people already disadvantaged.