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you are making a lot of conclusions that don't follow from your premises and many of your premises are false. "Since Hamas cannot be defeated in this way, it s

you are making a lot of conclusions that don't follow from your premises and many of your premises are false. "Since Hamas cannot be defeated in this way, it stands to reason" It can and it doesn't. Of course Hamas can be militarily defeated, its military infrastructure dismantled. "No, they're not, they're just repeating their "but Hamas" stuff" Yes, they are "What? Name one. What Palestinians actors have talked bout how there are no innocent Israelis?" https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/ https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-re... "Right now, you're saying Isreali is justified in its actions, which is leading to killing and starvation of civilians en masse" This is a war, you can't say Israeli actions are leading to killing of civilians, because this war has two sides, two players. At a minimum, the actions of Hamas have effects on civlians. At the very minimum, misfired rockets that they fire at Israel are known to fall on the heads of civilians injuring and killing them. The war could end if Hamas decicded to end it, not just Israel "IDF soldiers are making their TikToks." IDF has hundreds of thousands of soldiers, so 5 of them made a tiktok, so what? it's irrelevant.

johnnyworker 3y ago
> Of course Hamas can be militarily defeated, its military infrastructure dismantled. By destroying civilian infrastructure, targeting journalists, using starvation? No, that can kill all civilians in Gaza, and then there still will be Hamas in a tunnel somewhere. And that Hamas dude is not an actor? I thought you meant movie actors. But okay, the only people who say the kind of stuff that is normalized in Israeli society and repeated from highest ranks to lowest soldier, the only equivalent to it, is Hamas. (and probably Antisemites and all sorts of terrible people, but nobody that is remotely considered respectable by anyone in the West). You kind of made that point for me. > IDF has hundreds of thousands of soldiers, so 5 of them made a tiktok, so what? it's irrelevant. And when many, many, many of public Israeli figures call all people in Gaza animals and call for extermination, then that's irrelevant because Hamas the terrorist organization is saying terrorist things ^^ At any rate it's not 5, and the fact that they make these genocidal statements while destroying civilian infrastructure, including usually naming their unit, often even the name of the person who leads it, makes it clear that it's not fringe, it's not something hidden, it's not a video that was stolen of a flash card, it's what they upload on social media and get celebrated for at home. And that rhetoric seems to matches the actions on the ground way better than all that stuff about this being "war" and aimed primarily at Hamas.
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  "By destroying civilian infrastructure, targeting journalists, using starvation?" they are not using starvation, humanitarian aid is going into Gaza, multiple trucks are going on, hundreds a day. they are not targeting journalists, they are targeting Hamas. There are plenty of examples of Hamas affiliated "journalists" there. "At any rate, it's not 5". It doesn't matter if it's 5 or 10. There are literally hundreds of thousands of soldiers. You are holding Israel to a bizarre standard that no country can fulfill while somehow completely letting Palestinians off the hook. Thousands of civilians took part in the October 7th massacre. If you are going to compare soldiers making tiktoks Israel has fringe figures, bad people that say bad things or do bad things like any other country. This is not relevant to the analysis of the situation in which two sides are at war. In war civilians die, civlian infrastructure gets destroyed and that is horrible. But it;s extremely bizarre to place full responsibility on one side of the war, the side that did not start the war. Hamas started the war and Hamas made clear that Israel doesnt have too many options.
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Which is why you probably keep making up that straw man no matter how often I explain to you that everyone is reponsible for THEIR actions. There is not some kind of "war" package with shared responsibility. That is sophistry to sweep actual war crimes done by actual people under the rug. At the point where you're writing stuff like this, maybe the thread has outlived its usefulness? This isn't going to get resolved here, and you're both writing on a 7-day-old story that nobody is reading.
      - johnnyworker 3y ago
        > There is not some kind of "war" package with shared responsibility. That is sophistry to sweep actual war crimes done by actual people under the rug. I'd say that's simply accurate, and should be said more often, not less.

johnnyworker 3y ago

> Of course Hamas can be militarily defeated, its military infrastructure dismantled. By destroying civilian infrastructure, targeting journalists, using starvation? No, that can kill all civilians in Gaza, and then there still will be Hamas in a tunnel somewhere. And that Hamas dude is not an actor? I thought you meant movie actors. But okay, the only people who say the kind of stuff that is normalized in Israeli society and repeated from highest ranks to lowest soldier, the only equivalent to it, is Hamas. (and probably Antisemites and all sorts of terrible people, but nobody that is remotely considered respectable by anyone in the West). You kind of made that point for me. > IDF has hundreds of thousands of soldiers, so 5 of them made a tiktok, so what? it's irrelevant. And when many, many, many of public Israeli figures call all people in Gaza animals and call for extermination, then that's irrelevant because Hamas the terrorist organization is saying terrorist things ^^ At any rate it's not 5, and the fact that they make these genocidal statements while destroying civilian infrastructure, including usually naming their unit, often even the name of the person who leads it, makes it clear that it's not fringe, it's not something hidden, it's not a video that was stolen of a flash card, it's what they upload on social media and get celebrated for at home. And that rhetoric seems to matches the actions on the ground way better than all that stuff about this being "war" and aimed primarily at Hamas.

vasilipupkin 3y ago
"By destroying civilian infrastructure, targeting journalists, using starvation?" they are not using starvation, humanitarian aid is going into Gaza, multiple trucks are going on, hundreds a day. they are not targeting journalists, they are targeting Hamas. There are plenty of examples of Hamas affiliated "journalists" there. "At any rate, it's not 5". It doesn't matter if it's 5 or 10. There are literally hundreds of thousands of soldiers. You are holding Israel to a bizarre standard that no country can fulfill while somehow completely letting Palestinians off the hook. Thousands of civilians took part in the October 7th massacre. If you are going to compare soldiers making tiktoks Israel has fringe figures, bad people that say bad things or do bad things like any other country. This is not relevant to the analysis of the situation in which two sides are at war. In war civilians die, civlian infrastructure gets destroyed and that is horrible. But it;s extremely bizarre to place full responsibility on one side of the war, the side that did not start the war. Hamas started the war and Hamas made clear that Israel doesnt have too many options.
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Which is why you probably keep making up that straw man no matter how often I explain to you that everyone is reponsible for THEIR actions. There is not some kind of "war" package with shared responsibility. That is sophistry to sweep actual war crimes done by actual people under the rug. At the point where you're writing stuff like this, maybe the thread has outlived its usefulness? This isn't going to get resolved here, and you're both writing on a 7-day-old story that nobody is reading.
    - johnnyworker 3y ago
      > There is not some kind of "war" package with shared responsibility. That is sophistry to sweep actual war crimes done by actual people under the rug. I'd say that's simply accurate, and should be said more often, not less.