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> Incels will overestimate women’s minimum standards for mate-preferences. They will also overemphasize the importance of physical attractiveness and financial

> Incels will overestimate women’s minimum standards for mate-preferences. They will also overemphasize the importance of physical attractiveness and financial prospects and under emphasize the importance of kindness, intelligence, and humor I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. There are so many men who are victims of a society that tells them to work hard. With enough hard work any man can look good and make money. "Kindness, intelligence, and humor" are not only not required, but often seen as weakness. There's some merit to thinking that way because when things get tough those traits aren't going to help you very much. The world is extremely favorable towards men that know how to be successful solo. This doesn't necessarily attract women though, especially not good women, so here we are. Compounding this effect is that the latest generations of women are on the same path valuing the shallow things in life and only knowing how to work, but not live.

pizza234 3y ago
>> Incels will overestimate women’s minimum standards for mate-preferences. They will also overemphasize the importance of physical attractiveness and financial prospects and under emphasize the importance of kindness, intelligence, and humor > I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. People who fall in such far end of the spectrum are highly likely to have suffered abuse in their childhood, and as a consequence, they're not able to bond romantically with the opposite sex; under this model, superficial characteristics (beauty, wealthm etc.) are not the cause, they're just the easiest rationalization that they can find.
glimshe 3y ago
I remember a friend in middle school telling me his big discovery: "the way to a girl's heart is making her laugh". While some good taste and subtlety are important here, it's not far from truth!
JohnBooty 3y ago
I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. I've interacted with some incels online and their intricate rationalizations are just wild, about how only the top N% of men (in terms of looks and/or sexual prowess and/or money) are monopolizing all the women. And I'm just like.... Forget all of that. Just step outside and go literally anywhere where families or couples go. Look around. Look at all these men who have partners! Most of these men are not exactly models and/or dripping with cash! Clearly it is possible. (I am one of these people...) But you can't reason with incels, obviously. It's like trying to reason with somebody who has an eating disorder and thinks they're fat even though they're dangerously underweight. They are in a dark, damaged place and pointing to objective facts is not going to lead them out of that place.
- spacemadness 3y ago
  I also don’t think dating apps help the situation at all. You can find enough people obsessed with characteristics like height on them to give you further evidence for your wacky theories, especially if you have a cognitive bias to look for behavior you find unjust. Just go outside once to see all straight men don’t have to be 6’ or above to find a partner. Apps like Tinder have probably caused a lot of harm to mental health for its most frequent users.
  - JohnBooty 3y ago
    Apps like Tinder have probably caused a lot of harm to mental health for its most frequent users. Yeah. And there are good reasons why women can be picky on dating apps and such. Unless you are a female, or you have female friends explaining it to you, you have no idea what it's like to be a woman on a dating site. The deluge of dudes expressing interest is massive. You've got to narrow it down somehow. It's honestly kind of like when companies get hundreds of applicants for a single job. They have to cut down the pool somehow. Also, what people are looking for on Tinder is not necessarily what they want in a longer term partner. A woman on Tinder looking for a fling might have some pretty specific physical attributes in mind. That is not representative of what that same woman might want to actually partner with. (Same is true for men, obviously) It's easy to see why an incel, without somebody to explain a woman's perspective to him, could get completely the wrong idea.
- sublinear 3y ago
  My fault for not elaborating much on this point, but there is some blame to be given to the environment around these men. It's not entirely their fault and it's not fair they have to undo a lot of it, but... well they do for themselves at least. One of the most common environments is poverty. Their parents tell them to work hard and everything else hopefully falls into place. In this environment they grew up never having good examples or knowing the kindness expected from them as adults. They were often surrounded by selfish people and had to look over their shoulder constantly. Their social value was based entirely on their looks, skills, and/or money. Really what else can you expect? With this I also claim there is some merit to the idea that at least part of modern feminism really is just classist misandry rebranded for a new era. I want to reiterate that this is beginning to affect women too. Absent any good examples of how to live better they react to the same situation by taking advantage of men with the same or worse self-esteem issues as themselves. These women are not happy. They care more about impressing their peers and the man is just an accessory. I hope my explanations distinguish my perspective from the usual "red pill" nonsense. There's something here, but I'm just a dude so idk.
quickthrower2 3y ago
In addition to this dating is complex. There are a thousand reasons why you get rejected. Some of the will be subliminal. Any geek incel should just use probability theory. A sales incel should think in terms of cold calling / leads. Just talk to as many people as possible. Live somewhere with lots of people.
AndrewDucker 3y ago
> "Kindness, intelligence, and humor" are not only not required, but often seen as weakness. There's some merit to thinking that way because when things get tough those traits aren't going to help you very much. Actually, those traits will get you much further than brute force and ignorance. Humans are social. Treating your social group well will generally get you a lot further than not. (Other social groups is a debateable issue. But if you want to survive winter then you'll want everyone pulling together and supporting each other.)

pizza234 3y ago

>> Incels will overestimate women’s minimum standards for mate-preferences. They will also overemphasize the importance of physical attractiveness and financial prospects and under emphasize the importance of kindness, intelligence, and humor > I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. People who fall in such far end of the spectrum are highly likely to have suffered abuse in their childhood, and as a consequence, they're not able to bond romantically with the opposite sex; under this model, superficial characteristics (beauty, wealthm etc.) are not the cause, they're just the easiest rationalization that they can find.

glimshe 3y ago

I remember a friend in middle school telling me his big discovery: "the way to a girl's heart is making her laugh". While some good taste and subtlety are important here, it's not far from truth!

JohnBooty 3y ago

I feel like this is the most obvious answer and most in line with everyday experience. I've interacted with some incels online and their intricate rationalizations are just wild, about how only the top N% of men (in terms of looks and/or sexual prowess and/or money) are monopolizing all the women. And I'm just like.... Forget all of that. Just step outside and go literally anywhere where families or couples go. Look around. Look at all these men who have partners! Most of these men are not exactly models and/or dripping with cash! Clearly it is possible. (I am one of these people...) But you can't reason with incels, obviously. It's like trying to reason with somebody who has an eating disorder and thinks they're fat even though they're dangerously underweight. They are in a dark, damaged place and pointing to objective facts is not going to lead them out of that place.

spacemadness 3y ago
I also don’t think dating apps help the situation at all. You can find enough people obsessed with characteristics like height on them to give you further evidence for your wacky theories, especially if you have a cognitive bias to look for behavior you find unjust. Just go outside once to see all straight men don’t have to be 6’ or above to find a partner. Apps like Tinder have probably caused a lot of harm to mental health for its most frequent users.
- JohnBooty 3y ago
  Apps like Tinder have probably caused a lot of harm to mental health for its most frequent users. Yeah. And there are good reasons why women can be picky on dating apps and such. Unless you are a female, or you have female friends explaining it to you, you have no idea what it's like to be a woman on a dating site. The deluge of dudes expressing interest is massive. You've got to narrow it down somehow. It's honestly kind of like when companies get hundreds of applicants for a single job. They have to cut down the pool somehow. Also, what people are looking for on Tinder is not necessarily what they want in a longer term partner. A woman on Tinder looking for a fling might have some pretty specific physical attributes in mind. That is not representative of what that same woman might want to actually partner with. (Same is true for men, obviously) It's easy to see why an incel, without somebody to explain a woman's perspective to him, could get completely the wrong idea.
sublinear 3y ago
My fault for not elaborating much on this point, but there is some blame to be given to the environment around these men. It's not entirely their fault and it's not fair they have to undo a lot of it, but... well they do for themselves at least. One of the most common environments is poverty. Their parents tell them to work hard and everything else hopefully falls into place. In this environment they grew up never having good examples or knowing the kindness expected from them as adults. They were often surrounded by selfish people and had to look over their shoulder constantly. Their social value was based entirely on their looks, skills, and/or money. Really what else can you expect? With this I also claim there is some merit to the idea that at least part of modern feminism really is just classist misandry rebranded for a new era. I want to reiterate that this is beginning to affect women too. Absent any good examples of how to live better they react to the same situation by taking advantage of men with the same or worse self-esteem issues as themselves. These women are not happy. They care more about impressing their peers and the man is just an accessory. I hope my explanations distinguish my perspective from the usual "red pill" nonsense. There's something here, but I'm just a dude so idk.

quickthrower2 3y ago

In addition to this dating is complex. There are a thousand reasons why you get rejected. Some of the will be subliminal. Any geek incel should just use probability theory. A sales incel should think in terms of cold calling / leads. Just talk to as many people as possible. Live somewhere with lots of people.

AndrewDucker 3y ago

> "Kindness, intelligence, and humor" are not only not required, but often seen as weakness. There's some merit to thinking that way because when things get tough those traits aren't going to help you very much. Actually, those traits will get you much further than brute force and ignorance. Humans are social. Treating your social group well will generally get you a lot further than not. (Other social groups is a debateable issue. But if you want to survive winter then you'll want everyone pulling together and supporting each other.)