3 ms·

When I was between 15 to 20 I felt like I was left out. Then I found websites that helped me change and become a more attractive person. It was super confusing

When I was between 15 to 20 I felt like I was left out. Then I found websites that helped me change and become a more attractive person. It was super confusing and it took 4 years to change (around 21 the transformation was done). The first 2.5 years were thousands of rejections from women. It seemed that no one wanted me, but my options were "die loveless/without romance at the end of your life" or "keep trying". At some point I started to learn how to weave the most core parts of my personality into something that women appreciated (imaginative playfulness). After that I was fine and this whole thing never became an issue again. But I'm scared to think what would've happened if I would never have found those websites. I'm scared to think what would've happened if I gave up after 2 years of constant rejection (and I've seen this as a close friend quit, and now we're 14 years further along and he still has dating issues - he's finally fixing them). I'm scared to think if the advice would never land. In any of these 3 stages, I think incels are coming into existence. And I know how I'd feel, because I remember how I felt when I was 16. I'd feel cheated out of life. I'd feel unheard. I'd feel worthless. I'd feel life is worthless. Maybe I'd feel differently as an adult, but the problem is that by that point you're growing into this form of suffering. Other than incels, there are many people (men and women - it's not only men) who don't quite feel like that but feel somewhat close to that form of frustration and hopelessness. --- The yearning for romance is strong. Here are my two cents if you wanna improve your chances: 1. Volume * conversion. My conversion is low (1%), so I need high volume. If I want someone to find me attractive, I need to go up to and talk to 100 women with serious intent. 2. Attraction: use imaginative playfulness. If you love to imagine stuff, answer some serious questions with your imagination instead. Like if someone asks you "what do you do?" you can tell them "I'm the earth's therapist, and let me tell ya, it's not looking good." or "I teach alpaca's Japanese." or "I'm building a rollercoaster out of cheese for mice. It's the most friendly mouse trap known to mankind." 3. Vulnerability: dare to say where you'd like to go with her. Do this after you feel that the atmosphere/vibe between the two of you feels fun. At the end of a first date, if I want to kiss her, I ask. There's a lot of advice on "physical escalation". I've recently found (I was recently single again in a long time) that you don't need to "physically escalate". Two-thirds of the women I was on a date with and wanted to kiss, they wanted to kiss me back. If you want to have a discussion about it, feel free to email me (in my profile). I've seen quite a few friends that are stuck and they are like me and really don't have to be stuck.

zozbot234 3y ago
> And I know how I'd feel, because I remember how I felt when I was 16. I'd feel cheated out of life. I'd feel unheard. I'd feel worthless. But then you didn't hate women - in fact, you managed to be funny and playful with them, in a way that translates quite well to the romance context. See the difference? This is where the incel goes off track.
- numbers_guy 3y ago
  You have a pretty shallow understanding of human psychology. Are you autistic? Nothing wrong with that, but you should be aware that things out there are a bit more complex and nuanced than you seem to grasp.
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is there, do you disagree with what I said above? All I'm saying here is that it does not take more than a "shallow" understanding to avoid the loser inceldom failure mode.
- mettamage 3y ago
  You're right. I never hated women. Logic would prevent me from hating a large group like that. It's like saying I hate Americans :') I don't. The opposite isn't true either. I don't love women (or Americans, despite that one US person is my GF, ha!). I evaluate people on their own individuality. Sometimes I see trends because of a group, I know I have biases. I do my best not to get distracted by that. Individualism is the most useful philosophy for evaluating individuals on their own merits. But let me pose the problem back to you. Can you imagine how you'd act if you'd feel worthless? When I feel and think that question through, I'm scared by the answer.
gwervc 3y ago
> 1. Volume * conversion That's the key, it's the only two variables that matters. However, this is also the reason why it's hard for a lot of men to get a mate: Number of interactions IRL is harder and harder to get with the cultural shift to online apps and the demonization of male appraoch and behavior ("sexual harassment", "male gaze", "toxic masculinity"). And voicing about being single is associated with negative traits such as being misogynistic to the point research paper are published... Then regarding the conversion rate, when in the low single digit, it's rapidly hard to get motivated after facing dozens or hundreds of rejection.

zozbot234 3y ago

> And I know how I'd feel, because I remember how I felt when I was 16. I'd feel cheated out of life. I'd feel unheard. I'd feel worthless. But then you didn't hate women - in fact, you managed to be funny and playful with them, in a way that translates quite well to the romance context. See the difference? This is where the incel goes off track.

numbers_guy 3y ago
You have a pretty shallow understanding of human psychology. Are you autistic? Nothing wrong with that, but you should be aware that things out there are a bit more complex and nuanced than you seem to grasp.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is there, do you disagree with what I said above? All I'm saying here is that it does not take more than a "shallow" understanding to avoid the loser inceldom failure mode.
mettamage 3y ago
You're right. I never hated women. Logic would prevent me from hating a large group like that. It's like saying I hate Americans :') I don't. The opposite isn't true either. I don't love women (or Americans, despite that one US person is my GF, ha!). I evaluate people on their own individuality. Sometimes I see trends because of a group, I know I have biases. I do my best not to get distracted by that. Individualism is the most useful philosophy for evaluating individuals on their own merits. But let me pose the problem back to you. Can you imagine how you'd act if you'd feel worthless? When I feel and think that question through, I'm scared by the answer.

gwervc 3y ago

> 1. Volume * conversion That's the key, it's the only two variables that matters. However, this is also the reason why it's hard for a lot of men to get a mate: Number of interactions IRL is harder and harder to get with the cultural shift to online apps and the demonization of male appraoch and behavior ("sexual harassment", "male gaze", "toxic masculinity"). And voicing about being single is associated with negative traits such as being misogynistic to the point research paper are published... Then regarding the conversion rate, when in the low single digit, it's rapidly hard to get motivated after facing dozens or hundreds of rejection.