4 ms·

Why is it more or less dystopian than using non-cloned monkeys for research? Genuine question.

by karamanolev 3y ago

readthenotes1 3y ago
In this experiment, it sounds like they are killing naturally created monkeys for their placenta
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  I had the impression that they cultivate placentas from "normal" (non-cloned) IVF-like embryos, which are nevertheless not-yet-monkeys.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    What are monkey embryos, if not monkeys, and at what point do they transmute into monkeys?
    - inglor_cz 3y ago
      Isn't an analogical question a major flashpoint of culture wars in the US?
- karamanolev 3y ago
  In this experiment particularly, yes, but I would bet the original comment was referring to "The new technique could unlock possibilities for using cloned primates in drug testing and behavioural research." I was asking why using cloned primates for testing is better or worse than using naturally created monkeys. The research could be potentially better (more consistent results), but are the monkeys suffering less or more? Not clear to me.
  - timschmidt 3y ago
    More consistent results are great, so long as they're representative of the whole, which becomes decreasingly likely as the group of test subjects approaches a monoculture.
sam_goody 3y ago
There is the image of the dystopian ruler who has armies full of cloned, modified, thoughtless soldiers. Let's see how realistic that is: - Despot rulers who would create such an army if they could: Check - Despot rulers with VAST resources and abilities: Check - Gene editing to make the soldier you want: Check - Ability to clone primates and generate massive look-alike copies of earlier creation: Check - All sorts of steroids and drugs to make them that much more effective and obedient: Check ... Hmm, looks like there is no chance of this ever happening. Just science fiction. Maybe I should stop watching so many movies.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  I'd counter with: 1. Despot rulers with the willingness and ability to pre-pay for 18+ years of care, feeding, education, etc. for an uncertain long-term outcome: Very unlikely. 2. Technology for somehow skipping all of that to pop out functional adults straight out of pods: Nowhere any time soon. _________ The first item reminds me of a fiction quote, although the story (in this case) doesn't involve cloning: > “The Barrayarans are all so army-mad,” she explained. “I always like to put [the recovered bodies] back in their uniforms. They mean so much to them. I’m sure they’re more comfortable with them on.” > Ferrell frowned uneasily. “I still think he ought to be dumped with the rest of the garbage.” > “Not at all,” said the medtech. “Think of all the work he represents on somebody’s part. Nine months of pregnancy, childbirth, two years of diapering, and that’s just the beginning. Tens of thousands of meals, thousands of bedtime stories, years of school. Dozens of teachers. And all that military training, too. A lot of people went into making him.” -- Aftermaths by Lois McMaster Bujold
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    "Despot rulers with the willingness and ability to pre-pay for 18+ years of care, feeding, education, etc. for an uncertain long-term outcome: Very unlikely." Authoritarian countries actually understand the problem and spend a lot of money on indoctrination of youth. See: Hitlerjugend. Baldur von Schirach, the leader of HJ, was one of the most important people in the Nazi hierarchy and later served 20 years in Spandau prison. No one expects 100 per cent results, but if you instill certain bigotry and obedience in a large subset of said kids, it is usually enough for the regime to thrive. In the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, where I grew up, it was somewhat complicated to avoid all the Communist youth organizations, and your non-membership would handicap you during university admissions etc. (Possibly to the degree of never being able to study at all.) I think that, on balance, it would still be advantageous for authoritarian countries to produce kids in vitro and just assign them forcibly to parents. It has proven extraordinarily complicated to push people to procreate, but once the child is born in some lab and you are simply given no choice but to take care of it under threat of punishment, it is a different story. This kind of coercion is closer to the usual standard. China especially has a huge demographic problem and this would be an attractive solution for Xi et al.

Why is it more or less dystopian than using non-cloned monkeys for research? Genuine question.

readthenotes1 3y ago

In this experiment, it sounds like they are killing naturally created monkeys for their placenta

inglor_cz 3y ago
I had the impression that they cultivate placentas from "normal" (non-cloned) IVF-like embryos, which are nevertheless not-yet-monkeys.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  What are monkey embryos, if not monkeys, and at what point do they transmute into monkeys?
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    Isn't an analogical question a major flashpoint of culture wars in the US?
karamanolev 3y ago
In this experiment particularly, yes, but I would bet the original comment was referring to "The new technique could unlock possibilities for using cloned primates in drug testing and behavioural research." I was asking why using cloned primates for testing is better or worse than using naturally created monkeys. The research could be potentially better (more consistent results), but are the monkeys suffering less or more? Not clear to me.
- timschmidt 3y ago
  More consistent results are great, so long as they're representative of the whole, which becomes decreasingly likely as the group of test subjects approaches a monoculture.

sam_goody 3y ago

There is the image of the dystopian ruler who has armies full of cloned, modified, thoughtless soldiers. Let's see how realistic that is: - Despot rulers who would create such an army if they could: Check - Despot rulers with VAST resources and abilities: Check - Gene editing to make the soldier you want: Check - Ability to clone primates and generate massive look-alike copies of earlier creation: Check - All sorts of steroids and drugs to make them that much more effective and obedient: Check ... Hmm, looks like there is no chance of this ever happening. Just science fiction. Maybe I should stop watching so many movies.

Terr_ 3y ago
I'd counter with: 1. Despot rulers with the willingness and ability to pre-pay for 18+ years of care, feeding, education, etc. for an uncertain long-term outcome: Very unlikely. 2. Technology for somehow skipping all of that to pop out functional adults straight out of pods: Nowhere any time soon. _________ The first item reminds me of a fiction quote, although the story (in this case) doesn't involve cloning: > “The Barrayarans are all so army-mad,” she explained. “I always like to put [the recovered bodies] back in their uniforms. They mean so much to them. I’m sure they’re more comfortable with them on.” > Ferrell frowned uneasily. “I still think he ought to be dumped with the rest of the garbage.” > “Not at all,” said the medtech. “Think of all the work he represents on somebody’s part. Nine months of pregnancy, childbirth, two years of diapering, and that’s just the beginning. Tens of thousands of meals, thousands of bedtime stories, years of school. Dozens of teachers. And all that military training, too. A lot of people went into making him.” -- Aftermaths by Lois McMaster Bujold
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  "Despot rulers with the willingness and ability to pre-pay for 18+ years of care, feeding, education, etc. for an uncertain long-term outcome: Very unlikely." Authoritarian countries actually understand the problem and spend a lot of money on indoctrination of youth. See: Hitlerjugend. Baldur von Schirach, the leader of HJ, was one of the most important people in the Nazi hierarchy and later served 20 years in Spandau prison. No one expects 100 per cent results, but if you instill certain bigotry and obedience in a large subset of said kids, it is usually enough for the regime to thrive. In the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, where I grew up, it was somewhat complicated to avoid all the Communist youth organizations, and your non-membership would handicap you during university admissions etc. (Possibly to the degree of never being able to study at all.) I think that, on balance, it would still be advantageous for authoritarian countries to produce kids in vitro and just assign them forcibly to parents. It has proven extraordinarily complicated to push people to procreate, but once the child is born in some lab and you are simply given no choice but to take care of it under threat of punishment, it is a different story. This kind of coercion is closer to the usual standard. China especially has a huge demographic problem and this would be an attractive solution for Xi et al.