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> The argument is that any single country being overly powerful is a negative, and a more multipolar would would be healthier. I don't find that convincing, gi

by mopsi 3y ago

> The argument is that any single country being overly powerful is a negative, and a more multipolar would would be healthier. I don't find that convincing, given that the main claimants to this "multipolar world" are totalitarian dictatorships. > Russia has spent the past year failing to conquer a country of 40 million, without any involvement from those missile silos. If they tried to invade Poland or Finland they would crumble even quicker. This is not a view shared by any experts on the ground. Russia still maintains enough potential to cause immense damage to Poland, Finland, and all other of its neighbours, even if they ultimately lose. Rebuilding Ukraine will take many decades and countless billions, and the vast areas Russians have mined will take many centuries to clear. The mines will maim and kill tens of thousands of people - some of who haven't even been born yet - long after the war has ended. > The only countries with a legitimate fear of a Russian invasion are the same countries who have shown zero willingness to protect other people's "freedom to speak their language and practice their culture" when it comes to Russian people living within their (present) borders. This is complete bullshit, straight from Russian propaganda. Human rights are protected in Europe better than anywhere else in the world, and particularly well in places like Finland and Sweden that are rushing to prepare for war with Russia. Please do tell where Russia stands in global rankings of human freedom, and where do Finland or Sweden stand.

lmm 3y ago
> This is not a view shared by any experts on the ground. Russia still maintains enough potential to cause immense damage to Poland, Finland, and all other of its neighbours, even if they ultimately lose. Rebuilding Ukraine will take many decades and countless billions, and the vast areas Russians have mined will take many centuries to clear. The mines will maim and kill tens of thousands of people - some of who haven't even been born yet - long after the war has ended. Russia could certainly cause severe economic damage and kill many people, sure. But find me one credible expert who, given what we know now, supports your "hundreds of millions" claim. > Human rights are protected in Europe better than anywhere else in the world, and particularly well in places like Finland and Sweden Which is why the EU has been making increasingly strident criticisms of the way the Baltic states treat their Russian minorities (at least prior to the current war), and why Ukrainian efforts at EU membership stalled. > Please do tell where Russia stands in global rankings of human freedom, and where do Finland or Sweden stand. Depends whose "global" rankings they are. The likes of Freedom House show a clear bias once you dig into the details - apparently China not permitting schools to teach in Tibetan is a travesty, but Estonia limiting how much schools can teach in Russian is not worth knocking a point off for.
- Paradigma11 3y ago
  Nobody would care about Russian minorities and their rights if Russia wouldnt weaponize them. Its a typical Russian strategy: Radicalize and support those minorities. If the country does not do anything, it has a rebellious subversive group being directed by a hostile country. If it does anything it just goes to show how hostile and suppressive those countries are which justifies more official Russian reactions. Also dont forget that those loyal Russian minorities were part of the imperial oppressive structure by which Russia ruled over its subjects.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > Nobody would care about Russian minorities and their rights if Russia wouldnt weaponize them. Anyone who cares about protecting non-Russian ex-Soviet languages and cultures for principled reasons should care about protecting the Russian language and culture in places where they're a minority, for the same reason. > Also dont forget that those loyal Russian minorities were part of the imperial oppressive structure by which Russia ruled over its subjects. The Russian empire transplanted various peoples at various times as a tool of oppression, but that's hardly the fault or responsibility of the poor peasants who got transplanted. And on the ruling side, Stalin the Georgian was every bit as oppressive and imperial as Russian rulers before or since.
    - Paradigma11 3y ago
      What I meant was, that no country would treat Russian minorities any way different than other ethnicities. Russia weaponizing those people makes less favorable legislation necessary. Sure, but the Russian Empire in its various forms transplanted those Russian people because they were loyal and could be put into positions of power. If you compare their treatment to that of the German minorities after WW2 they got a very good deal.
- mopsi 3y ago
  > Russia could certainly cause severe economic damage and kill many people, sure. But find me one credible expert who, given what we know now, supports your "hundreds of millions" claim. Since mid-2023, everyone from think-tanks like the German Council on Foreign Relations to chiefs of defense of Europe have been ringing an alarm bell over Putin's ambitions beyond Ukraine. The population of Germany and Poland alone pushes the number of people directly at risk of Russian aggression over 100 million. > Which is why the EU has been making increasingly strident criticisms of the way the Baltic states treat their Russian minorities They haven't. The sob story about Russians being mistreated everywhere was a smear campaign to sabotage the entry of Eastern European countries into the EU. Its heyday was around the end of accession negotiations in early 2000s. As of 2024, nobody takes that seriously anymore. Russians too have recognized ineffectiveness of that narrative and have stopped pushing it. > Depends whose "global" rankings they are. Indeed. Only a severely brainwashed person would put Russia anywhere near Finland or Sweden when it comes to human rights. You can reply with shallow rhetorical arguments, but there's as much to discuss here as with the Flat Earth crowd. It's not a good faith discussion beyond this point.
hnfong 3y ago
> I don't find that convincing, given that the main claimants to this "multipolar world" are totalitarian dictatorships. If the USA is dictating issues outside its borders, and the affected people have no vote in US politics, then to them, this isn't conceptually different from being ruled by a dictatorship at all.

by mopsi 3y ago

lmm 3y ago

> This is not a view shared by any experts on the ground. Russia still maintains enough potential to cause immense damage to Poland, Finland, and all other of its neighbours, even if they ultimately lose. Rebuilding Ukraine will take many decades and countless billions, and the vast areas Russians have mined will take many centuries to clear. The mines will maim and kill tens of thousands of people - some of who haven't even been born yet - long after the war has ended. Russia could certainly cause severe economic damage and kill many people, sure. But find me one credible expert who, given what we know now, supports your "hundreds of millions" claim. > Human rights are protected in Europe better than anywhere else in the world, and particularly well in places like Finland and Sweden Which is why the EU has been making increasingly strident criticisms of the way the Baltic states treat their Russian minorities (at least prior to the current war), and why Ukrainian efforts at EU membership stalled. > Please do tell where Russia stands in global rankings of human freedom, and where do Finland or Sweden stand. Depends whose "global" rankings they are. The likes of Freedom House show a clear bias once you dig into the details - apparently China not permitting schools to teach in Tibetan is a travesty, but Estonia limiting how much schools can teach in Russian is not worth knocking a point off for.

Paradigma11 3y ago
Nobody would care about Russian minorities and their rights if Russia wouldnt weaponize them. Its a typical Russian strategy: Radicalize and support those minorities. If the country does not do anything, it has a rebellious subversive group being directed by a hostile country. If it does anything it just goes to show how hostile and suppressive those countries are which justifies more official Russian reactions. Also dont forget that those loyal Russian minorities were part of the imperial oppressive structure by which Russia ruled over its subjects.
- lmm 3y ago
  > Nobody would care about Russian minorities and their rights if Russia wouldnt weaponize them. Anyone who cares about protecting non-Russian ex-Soviet languages and cultures for principled reasons should care about protecting the Russian language and culture in places where they're a minority, for the same reason. > Also dont forget that those loyal Russian minorities were part of the imperial oppressive structure by which Russia ruled over its subjects. The Russian empire transplanted various peoples at various times as a tool of oppression, but that's hardly the fault or responsibility of the poor peasants who got transplanted. And on the ruling side, Stalin the Georgian was every bit as oppressive and imperial as Russian rulers before or since.
  - Paradigma11 3y ago
    What I meant was, that no country would treat Russian minorities any way different than other ethnicities. Russia weaponizing those people makes less favorable legislation necessary. Sure, but the Russian Empire in its various forms transplanted those Russian people because they were loyal and could be put into positions of power. If you compare their treatment to that of the German minorities after WW2 they got a very good deal.
mopsi 3y ago
> Russia could certainly cause severe economic damage and kill many people, sure. But find me one credible expert who, given what we know now, supports your "hundreds of millions" claim. Since mid-2023, everyone from think-tanks like the German Council on Foreign Relations to chiefs of defense of Europe have been ringing an alarm bell over Putin's ambitions beyond Ukraine. The population of Germany and Poland alone pushes the number of people directly at risk of Russian aggression over 100 million. > Which is why the EU has been making increasingly strident criticisms of the way the Baltic states treat their Russian minorities They haven't. The sob story about Russians being mistreated everywhere was a smear campaign to sabotage the entry of Eastern European countries into the EU. Its heyday was around the end of accession negotiations in early 2000s. As of 2024, nobody takes that seriously anymore. Russians too have recognized ineffectiveness of that narrative and have stopped pushing it. > Depends whose "global" rankings they are. Indeed. Only a severely brainwashed person would put Russia anywhere near Finland or Sweden when it comes to human rights. You can reply with shallow rhetorical arguments, but there's as much to discuss here as with the Flat Earth crowd. It's not a good faith discussion beyond this point.

hnfong 3y ago

> I don't find that convincing, given that the main claimants to this "multipolar world" are totalitarian dictatorships. If the USA is dictating issues outside its borders, and the affected people have no vote in US politics, then to them, this isn't conceptually different from being ruled by a dictatorship at all.