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I personally welcome cooperation with the Pentagon for OpenAI and other American companies. The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working wi

I personally welcome cooperation with the Pentagon for OpenAI and other American companies. The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working with our national defense organizations is both annoying and bewilderingly naive and that's even when we take into consideration all of the bad things that happen. Strengthening partnerships with our government certainly doesn't make me mistrust OpenAI.

HHC-Hunter 3y ago
They have aligned themselves with he people you should exactly NOT trust. Corporations and governments.
- scottLobster 3y ago
  So... pretty much everyone who matters in our current system.
  - uoaei 3y ago
    Your moral value system is on full display... "might makes right".
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
amrocha 3y ago
Say that again when they use AI to spy on you even more than they already do
- scottLobster 3y ago
  That's a political problem, and requires a political solution.
  - amrocha 3y ago
    The political solution is to not partner with the Pentagon
    - jasonladuke0311 3y ago
      There are a lot of companies that probably don’t have “official” partnerships with the govt but absolutely help them, like every social media company, OS maker, telecom, auto maker, and ISP.
scottLobster 3y ago
Yeah I understand skepticism over the USE of our military, but being categorically against our military having expanded military capabilities is just intentionally weakening ourselves. It's like saying our soldiers in Iraq shouldn't have had modern rifles because the invasion of Iraq was wrong. I can only surmise that Silicon Valley has a sizeable contingent raised by hippie Vietnam protestors that produced a generational vibe of "military bad".
- ttt11199907 3y ago
  Well, history is certainly written by the victors eh? The military is a tool used to maintain the empire of an unsustainable culture of consumption. This military is KILLING people in Yemen (a country with which the US is NOT at war) because they are delaying shipments of stuff. Stuff getting from a to b on time and for cheap is worth more than human life. Go live as a civilian in a country that our military has decimated with bombs and then say again that "military bad" is just a vibe.
  - edgyquant 3y ago
    Yep, this is the naive rhetoric the GP was talking about. It’s totally okay for Houthis to lob missiles at American boats with American citizens on it and doing anything but letting them do so is “imperialism.”
    - FactKnower69 3y ago
      Why are they attacking the boats, and what are their conditions for stopping?
      - edgyquant 3y ago
        Why should we care? They attacked us
      - vlovich123 3y ago
        Is this serious? Like literally one of the things the US navy does is provide protection to ships flying the US flag. That’s literally one of the main things the navy does in peacetime. Remember the Somali pirates? These are ships traveling through international waters being attacked - what other response would make sense? As for their aims, you can believe it’s about Palestine but that seems more pretextual. Historically the Houthi’s have been extremely anti Saudia Arabia and the normalization talks with Israel pose a substantial threat to them and Iranians (not to mention the US historically is allied with Saudia Arabia). It’s possible that this is just retaliation for all of that but some believe that this is their attempt to draw in the US and UK into another middle eastern war which works further weaken them which is beneficial for the Iranian/Russia/China interests to establish a new world order.
aleph_minus_one 3y ago
> The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working with our national defense organizations is both annoying and bewilderingly naive and that's even when we take into consideration all of the bad things that happen. I think yor phrase "our national defense organizations" summarizes the counterargument: a lot of readers/commenters on HN live in other countries.
- Tommstein 3y ago
  "10 out of 10 dictators disapprove of the free world improving their defense capabilities!"
  - aleph_minus_one 3y ago
    To counter this polemic comment with a more serious one: the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq after the 9/11 attacks was a central watershed moment in history that lead to a massive shift in the public opinion concerning the US military politics in many countries (and has stayed quite critical of it since then) - including lots of allies of the USA.
    - Tommstein 3y ago
      > To counter this polemic comment with a more serious one: the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq after the 9/11 attacks was a central watershed moment in history that lead to a massive shift in the public opinion concerning the US military politics in many countries (and has stayed quite critical of it since then) - including lots of allies of the USA. Nice try, but no. Iraq was bullshit, and even we protested it ourselves, but Afghanistan had the support of basically the entire world. Many of those allies you claim don't value our military anymore pee themselves a little at the thought of being left to fend for themselves by us leaving NATO and ceasing to massively subsidize their defense (e.g., the wailing and gnashing when Donald Trump was threatening to take us out of NATO).
      - kridsdale1 3y ago
marcus_holmes 3y ago
I think the problem is that US "Defense" seems to involve a lot of foreign wars and "police actions" in countries that pose no conceivable threat to the USA. The thing we all dread is AI-driven drones carrying out extra-judicial killings to promote US commercial interests in other countries. So far there seems to be nothing preventing this except the unwillingness of AI companies to co-operate with the "defense" industry. That apparently is no longer the case.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Unwillingness of AI companies was never a concern or a blocker. Some companies may say they are unwilling, but there are plenty of engineers and corps that are very much willing.
davexunit 3y ago
Maybe the disdain is because the US military is actually very very evil?
- FactKnower69 3y ago
  You can't say that; after all, Operation Northwoods never ended up happening.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
The US has a fascist running for president right now(who was previously elected!). There is every reason to be worried about new tech adoption by the US military.
- Tommstein 3y ago
  Then you will be pleased to learn that the US military takes an oath to the Constitution, not to whoever happens to be the current President. Exactly because the dangers of assholes assuming the Presidency isn't some kind of genius insight that you're the first person to ever consider.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    'Insurrection Act'.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    Why are you so salty? I just don't have faith in US political and cultural stability anymore, and as such I don't have faith that the constitution will be upheld, or even that the US will remain allied to Europe, where I live(though I wouldn't go as far as saying it's unlikely. Just wouldn't bet on it). Also, the US constitution clearly has very little direct say on the actions of the US military abroad, as history has demonstrated.
    - Tommstein 3y ago
      > I just don't have faith in US political and cultural stability anymore, and as such I don't have faith that the constitution will be upheld . . . . You can have faith or lack thereof in whatever you want, but I would like you to provide one single example in history where the President decided to give the military unconstitutional orders (as in legally acknowledged at the time to be unconstitutional, not "I don't like it so it's unconstitutional") and the US military sided with him instead of the Constitution.
  - SamPatt 3y ago
    Oaths and old documents mean almost nothing compared against human tribal instincts. Asshole isn't some objective designation. A huge portion of military members support the current strong man vying for power. Always have, always will.
injeolmi_love 3y ago
>bewilderingly naive I am guessing none of your friends or family have been a victim of aggression directed by the Pentagon?
SamPatt 3y ago
>bewilderingly naive Or perhaps they're aware of the history of militaries / intelligence agencies. >Strengthening partnerships with our government certainly doesn't make me mistrust OpenAI. This strikes me as bewilderingly naive.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
vlovich123 3y ago
But even American companies have offices abroad especially as they get big (not OpenAI yet but if they get big enough surely). Eg deepmind is based in the UK. Is it surprising to you that people from other countries might be wary of strengthening the US military at all costs? Also, we know that the US military frequently uses its powers to maintain its global hegemony and the influence of US corporations abroad. This can be beneficial (more stable world order with fewer conflicts) but can be harmful (if the US decides to overthrow your government to protect its interests or the interests of the powerful within the US, bye bye)
8note 3y ago
I think the Pentagon cooperation with Boeing is the real cause of Boeing's rot, so this is a partnership that is bad for openAI's engineering and science over a longer term. The incentives switch from making good and useful stuff to getting more military contracts
- marcyb5st 3y ago
  I think that's just another symptom. My theory is that Boeing is another engineering company that was overtook by MBAs. 10+ years ago I was working for a company acquired by Boeing (Jeppesen) and it was already a massive shitshow. Cost cutting everywhere but weirdly enough there were always money for some dumb initiative some highly placed and connected VP/Director had. None of those in my opinion led to an improvement in products, working efficiency, or any meaningful metric. Sorry for being salty. Nowadays I feel I am going through the same st my current company and so this hits closer than I like.
- kridsdale1 3y ago
  Boeing has been making military aircraft since 1917.

HHC-Hunter 3y ago

They have aligned themselves with he people you should exactly NOT trust. Corporations and governments.

scottLobster 3y ago
So... pretty much everyone who matters in our current system.
- uoaei 3y ago
  Your moral value system is on full display... "might makes right".
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

amrocha 3y ago

Say that again when they use AI to spy on you even more than they already do

scottLobster 3y ago
That's a political problem, and requires a political solution.
- amrocha 3y ago
  The political solution is to not partner with the Pentagon
  - jasonladuke0311 3y ago
    There are a lot of companies that probably don’t have “official” partnerships with the govt but absolutely help them, like every social media company, OS maker, telecom, auto maker, and ISP.

scottLobster 3y ago

Yeah I understand skepticism over the USE of our military, but being categorically against our military having expanded military capabilities is just intentionally weakening ourselves. It's like saying our soldiers in Iraq shouldn't have had modern rifles because the invasion of Iraq was wrong. I can only surmise that Silicon Valley has a sizeable contingent raised by hippie Vietnam protestors that produced a generational vibe of "military bad".

ttt11199907 3y ago
Well, history is certainly written by the victors eh? The military is a tool used to maintain the empire of an unsustainable culture of consumption. This military is KILLING people in Yemen (a country with which the US is NOT at war) because they are delaying shipments of stuff. Stuff getting from a to b on time and for cheap is worth more than human life. Go live as a civilian in a country that our military has decimated with bombs and then say again that "military bad" is just a vibe.
- edgyquant 3y ago
  Yep, this is the naive rhetoric the GP was talking about. It’s totally okay for Houthis to lob missiles at American boats with American citizens on it and doing anything but letting them do so is “imperialism.”
  - FactKnower69 3y ago
    Why are they attacking the boats, and what are their conditions for stopping?
    - edgyquant 3y ago
      Why should we care? They attacked us
    - vlovich123 3y ago
      Is this serious? Like literally one of the things the US navy does is provide protection to ships flying the US flag. That’s literally one of the main things the navy does in peacetime. Remember the Somali pirates? These are ships traveling through international waters being attacked - what other response would make sense? As for their aims, you can believe it’s about Palestine but that seems more pretextual. Historically the Houthi’s have been extremely anti Saudia Arabia and the normalization talks with Israel pose a substantial threat to them and Iranians (not to mention the US historically is allied with Saudia Arabia). It’s possible that this is just retaliation for all of that but some believe that this is their attempt to draw in the US and UK into another middle eastern war which works further weaken them which is beneficial for the Iranian/Russia/China interests to establish a new world order.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago

> The disdain that seems to infest so many when it comes to working with our national defense organizations is both annoying and bewilderingly naive and that's even when we take into consideration all of the bad things that happen. I think yor phrase "our national defense organizations" summarizes the counterargument: a lot of readers/commenters on HN live in other countries.

Tommstein 3y ago
"10 out of 10 dictators disapprove of the free world improving their defense capabilities!"
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  To counter this polemic comment with a more serious one: the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq after the 9/11 attacks was a central watershed moment in history that lead to a massive shift in the public opinion concerning the US military politics in many countries (and has stayed quite critical of it since then) - including lots of allies of the USA.
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    > To counter this polemic comment with a more serious one: the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq after the 9/11 attacks was a central watershed moment in history that lead to a massive shift in the public opinion concerning the US military politics in many countries (and has stayed quite critical of it since then) - including lots of allies of the USA. Nice try, but no. Iraq was bullshit, and even we protested it ourselves, but Afghanistan had the support of basically the entire world. Many of those allies you claim don't value our military anymore pee themselves a little at the thought of being left to fend for themselves by us leaving NATO and ceasing to massively subsidize their defense (e.g., the wailing and gnashing when Donald Trump was threatening to take us out of NATO).
    - kridsdale1 3y ago

marcus_holmes 3y ago

I think the problem is that US "Defense" seems to involve a lot of foreign wars and "police actions" in countries that pose no conceivable threat to the USA. The thing we all dread is AI-driven drones carrying out extra-judicial killings to promote US commercial interests in other countries. So far there seems to be nothing preventing this except the unwillingness of AI companies to co-operate with the "defense" industry. That apparently is no longer the case.

edgyquant 3y ago
Unwillingness of AI companies was never a concern or a blocker. Some companies may say they are unwilling, but there are plenty of engineers and corps that are very much willing.

davexunit 3y ago

Maybe the disdain is because the US military is actually very very evil?

FactKnower69 3y ago
You can't say that; after all, Operation Northwoods never ended up happening.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

The US has a fascist running for president right now(who was previously elected!). There is every reason to be worried about new tech adoption by the US military.

Tommstein 3y ago
Then you will be pleased to learn that the US military takes an oath to the Constitution, not to whoever happens to be the current President. Exactly because the dangers of assholes assuming the Presidency isn't some kind of genius insight that you're the first person to ever consider.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  'Insurrection Act'.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  Why are you so salty? I just don't have faith in US political and cultural stability anymore, and as such I don't have faith that the constitution will be upheld, or even that the US will remain allied to Europe, where I live(though I wouldn't go as far as saying it's unlikely. Just wouldn't bet on it). Also, the US constitution clearly has very little direct say on the actions of the US military abroad, as history has demonstrated.
  - Tommstein 3y ago
    > I just don't have faith in US political and cultural stability anymore, and as such I don't have faith that the constitution will be upheld . . . . You can have faith or lack thereof in whatever you want, but I would like you to provide one single example in history where the President decided to give the military unconstitutional orders (as in legally acknowledged at the time to be unconstitutional, not "I don't like it so it's unconstitutional") and the US military sided with him instead of the Constitution.
- SamPatt 3y ago
  Oaths and old documents mean almost nothing compared against human tribal instincts. Asshole isn't some objective designation. A huge portion of military members support the current strong man vying for power. Always have, always will.

injeolmi_love 3y ago

>bewilderingly naive I am guessing none of your friends or family have been a victim of aggression directed by the Pentagon?

SamPatt 3y ago

>bewilderingly naive Or perhaps they're aware of the history of militaries / intelligence agencies. >Strengthening partnerships with our government certainly doesn't make me mistrust OpenAI. This strikes me as bewilderingly naive.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

vlovich123 3y ago

But even American companies have offices abroad especially as they get big (not OpenAI yet but if they get big enough surely). Eg deepmind is based in the UK. Is it surprising to you that people from other countries might be wary of strengthening the US military at all costs? Also, we know that the US military frequently uses its powers to maintain its global hegemony and the influence of US corporations abroad. This can be beneficial (more stable world order with fewer conflicts) but can be harmful (if the US decides to overthrow your government to protect its interests or the interests of the powerful within the US, bye bye)

8note 3y ago

I think the Pentagon cooperation with Boeing is the real cause of Boeing's rot, so this is a partnership that is bad for openAI's engineering and science over a longer term. The incentives switch from making good and useful stuff to getting more military contracts

marcyb5st 3y ago
I think that's just another symptom. My theory is that Boeing is another engineering company that was overtook by MBAs. 10+ years ago I was working for a company acquired by Boeing (Jeppesen) and it was already a massive shitshow. Cost cutting everywhere but weirdly enough there were always money for some dumb initiative some highly placed and connected VP/Director had. None of those in my opinion led to an improvement in products, working efficiency, or any meaningful metric. Sorry for being salty. Nowadays I feel I am going through the same st my current company and so this hits closer than I like.
kridsdale1 3y ago
Boeing has been making military aircraft since 1917.