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How can the “second most popular phone” have a monopoly?

by onethought 3y ago

earthling8118 3y ago
You don't have to be the most popular to be a monopoly. Not even close.
- onethought 3y ago
  I think I misunderstand what mono implies in monopoly then. If there is another - more popular provider. Isn’t it at the very least a duopoly? Or are we redefining words now?
  - lxgr 3y ago
    Can I use the Google Play store on my iPhone? If not, there is no other provider competing with Apple in the market that is “selling apps to iPhone users”. Whether that’s a market considered relevant from an antitrust point of view is the big question.
    - old_hat 3y ago
      I can't use another company's GPS system in my car, so in the market of, "Using GPS navigation / menus / etc in my 10 year old Mini's dashboard" there's no meaningful competitor. They charge for map updates and everything. At some point a company is just building a feature, and they're not required to make every single feature accomodate every other manufacturer's competing version of the feature. I knew I was buying the Mini system when I bought the car, and I accepted it. Same is true for iPhone users.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        > I knew I was buying the Mini system when I bought the car, and I accepted it. "Knowing that you're buying into a monopoly" is generally not a valid defense for a monopolist. The idea is that there can be a disadvantage/harmful impact to market participants even despite their full knowledge of the market structure (which isn't even a given for retail consumers). But generally, I agree: There are definitely many closed ecosystems/non-competitive "markets" like the ones you describe, and more often than not, regulators don't step in. Who knows, maybe regulators will address that market at some point! The EU DMA doesn't seem to obviously not apply in this scenario, for example. Several factors for why I'd consider that case to be a bit different though: - Many car entertainment systems now offer you to connect an iPhone or Android phone and use CarPlay or Android Auto for navigation. You can reasonably use the car's navigation functionality (GPS antenna, voice output, built-in screen that won't hit your head in an accident) without paying the car manufacturer! - If your car doesn't allow that, or you don't want to use Apple's or Google's solutions, you can stick a physical aftermarket navigation system to your windshield/ventilation grill. - There isn't a single car maker that controls roughly half of the US market.
    - hnfong 3y ago
      All you can argue for is that Apple is the most popular iOS vendor by a large margin and hence a monopoly in the iOS market. You still can't say Apple is a monopoly by being the second most popular in the smartphone OS market...
      - lxgr 3y ago
        That's exactly what I'm arguing for. Two competing (commercial) smartphone OSes are probably just fine! Much more than that would probably make it uneconomical for developers to provide native apps for all of them, unless they're API compatible.
    - onethought 3y ago
      By this definition everything is a monopoly in an arbitrary constrained environment. Toyota is a monopoly for RAV4 manufacture. Can you get a RAV4 from Mercedes? Monopoly!
- etchalon 3y ago
  You absolutely have to be the most popular to be a monopoly. You can be the most popular and not be a monopoly, but the reverse is definitionally impossible.
kccqzy 3y ago
Read the ruling. It's not a monopoly. https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2 https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2 > Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws. While the Court finds that Apple enjoys considerable market share of over 55% and extraordinarily high profit margins, these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct. Success is not illegal. The final trial record did not include evidence of other critical factors, such as barriers to entry and conduct decreasing output or decreasing innovation in the relevant market. The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  > It's not a monopoly. > The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist.
- onethought 3y ago
  Think you should be responding to the GP - not me. I agree it’s not a monopoly. Hence why I pointed it out. GP made the monopoly comment.
enragedcacti 3y ago
You've already skipped over the most important aspect of determining if someone is a monopoly, which is defining the relevant market. A key piece of the Epic v. Apple case was determining the relevant market, where "phones" was never even considered as a possibility. https://ei.com/economists-ink/fall-2021/market-definition-in-the-epic-apple-decision/ https://ei.com/economists-ink/fall-2021/market-definition-in...

How can the “second most popular phone” have a monopoly?

earthling8118 3y ago

You don't have to be the most popular to be a monopoly. Not even close.

onethought 3y ago
I think I misunderstand what mono implies in monopoly then. If there is another - more popular provider. Isn’t it at the very least a duopoly? Or are we redefining words now?
- lxgr 3y ago
  Can I use the Google Play store on my iPhone? If not, there is no other provider competing with Apple in the market that is “selling apps to iPhone users”. Whether that’s a market considered relevant from an antitrust point of view is the big question.
  - old_hat 3y ago
    I can't use another company's GPS system in my car, so in the market of, "Using GPS navigation / menus / etc in my 10 year old Mini's dashboard" there's no meaningful competitor. They charge for map updates and everything. At some point a company is just building a feature, and they're not required to make every single feature accomodate every other manufacturer's competing version of the feature. I knew I was buying the Mini system when I bought the car, and I accepted it. Same is true for iPhone users.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      > I knew I was buying the Mini system when I bought the car, and I accepted it. "Knowing that you're buying into a monopoly" is generally not a valid defense for a monopolist. The idea is that there can be a disadvantage/harmful impact to market participants even despite their full knowledge of the market structure (which isn't even a given for retail consumers). But generally, I agree: There are definitely many closed ecosystems/non-competitive "markets" like the ones you describe, and more often than not, regulators don't step in. Who knows, maybe regulators will address that market at some point! The EU DMA doesn't seem to obviously not apply in this scenario, for example. Several factors for why I'd consider that case to be a bit different though: - Many car entertainment systems now offer you to connect an iPhone or Android phone and use CarPlay or Android Auto for navigation. You can reasonably use the car's navigation functionality (GPS antenna, voice output, built-in screen that won't hit your head in an accident) without paying the car manufacturer! - If your car doesn't allow that, or you don't want to use Apple's or Google's solutions, you can stick a physical aftermarket navigation system to your windshield/ventilation grill. - There isn't a single car maker that controls roughly half of the US market.
  - hnfong 3y ago
    All you can argue for is that Apple is the most popular iOS vendor by a large margin and hence a monopoly in the iOS market. You still can't say Apple is a monopoly by being the second most popular in the smartphone OS market...
    - lxgr 3y ago
      That's exactly what I'm arguing for. Two competing (commercial) smartphone OSes are probably just fine! Much more than that would probably make it uneconomical for developers to provide native apps for all of them, unless they're API compatible.
  - onethought 3y ago
    By this definition everything is a monopoly in an arbitrary constrained environment. Toyota is a monopoly for RAV4 manufacture. Can you get a RAV4 from Mercedes? Monopoly!
etchalon 3y ago
You absolutely have to be the most popular to be a monopoly. You can be the most popular and not be a monopoly, but the reverse is definitionally impossible.

kccqzy 3y ago

Read the ruling. It's not a monopoly. https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2 https://casetext.com/case/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc-2 > Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws. While the Court finds that Apple enjoys considerable market share of over 55% and extraordinarily high profit margins, these factors alone do not show antitrust conduct. Success is not illegal. The final trial record did not include evidence of other critical factors, such as barriers to entry and conduct decreasing output or decreasing innovation in the relevant market. The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist.

enragedcacti 3y ago
> It's not a monopoly. > The Court does not find that it is impossible; only that Epic Games failed in its burden to demonstrate Apple is an illegal monopolist.
onethought 3y ago
Think you should be responding to the GP - not me. I agree it’s not a monopoly. Hence why I pointed it out. GP made the monopoly comment.

enragedcacti 3y ago

You've already skipped over the most important aspect of determining if someone is a monopoly, which is defining the relevant market. A key piece of the Epic v. Apple case was determining the relevant market, where "phones" was never even considered as a possibility. https://ei.com/economists-ink/fall-2021/market-definition-in-the-epic-apple-decision/ https://ei.com/economists-ink/fall-2021/market-definition-in...