8 ms·

I sure hope so, Russia has 100% been doing it, with multiple documented „botfarms” (more like fake identity verification farms)

mschuster91 3y ago
Russia doesn't need fancy "AI" to do this. Human operators and a few well-designed scripts make botting very easy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
EGreg 3y ago
TikTok algo can do it more subtly through prioritizing other people’s media, selectively amplifying legitimately generated content
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  There was a period of time last year where TikTok really wanted me to see the Canadian government as an unmitigated disaster. Just endless scrolls of random mouth frothers screaming about it. Not opining on the matter specifically; just that TikTok had a very clear opinion on what I ought to think.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      Yeah I’m not interested in discussing the subject matter here.
      - datavirtue 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - Kerb_ 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Waterluvian 3y ago
        It’s not really about deciding if one trusts the government or not. That’s an oversimplification of one’s civic responsibility to study the issues and make informed decisions. The main harm astroturfing does is convert everything into black and white oversimplifications. It turns people into unthinkers. They pick a side and then act like it’s some sort of battle against the other side.
        Kerb_ 3y ago
        Of course! I didn't actually rewrite my framework just to counter someone on the internet. I said that more to call out the low effort response as fitting an extremely predictable pattern of uninformed people trying to pose their drive-by hot take as fact, and the unreliability of said information in practice
        FpUser 3y ago
        I do not pick sides. The only things I see are changes in quality of life. One must be blind not to see where it is going. As for "informed decisions" - I do make those based on what I see and do not need help from TikTok or anything else. HN is about the only social media I participate in when I need a quick brake from working on computer.
      - FpUser 3y ago
        >"It sounds like how American conservatives discuss cities they've never been to." I live in Toronto since 92 and I can compare back then and now so don't assume things.
frogamel 3y ago
I've noticed a huge surge in negativity and pessimism on English-language social media within the last year or so, roughly corresponding with to the spread of LLM tech. I do wonder whether these people are mostly just bots.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Twitter and Reddit seem to be filled with bots and shills nowadays. I think it is a consequence of actual users leaving for private groups (Discord, Telegram, Whatsapp) or small forums. But ye surely LLMs are increasing the bot count.
- fulladder 3y ago
  This seems to be happening in English-language meat space too, so I don't think it's bots. I'm not sure what happened. The trend started in 2023 and seems to be ongoing, though I imagine people will get over it soon. I've heard it suggested that people are just in a funk about the economy, at least in the U.S.
- shadoxx 3y ago
  I've noticed this as well, across pretty much all of social media that I use. I can't quite place my finger on it, whether it's just a reflection of the state of the collective feelings of people, or if it's mass manipulation. At this point it could be both.
FpUser 3y ago
Russia also drops people out of the windows. Should we (the supposedly humane West) start doing the same just because they do?
- hsuduebc2 3y ago
  They can do whatever they want to themselves. We are talking about attacking others. You can't ignore direct hit into face.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    The talk was: >"The CIA probably realizes it doesn't need to fund rebel groups [1] or use local journalists/clergy [2] to instigate a regime change these days" To me it sounds like instigating regime changes all over the places. The US is famous for doing so and then leaving behind multiple victims.
    - hsuduebc2 3y ago
      And another powers are not? Especially in recent age. russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack. They play same game quite differently.
      - FpUser 3y ago
        >"russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack" So you want the US to do the same? It had already "conquered" some countries. I do not think anybody likes the outcome. It looks more like a crime. >"And another powers are not?" I thought whataboutism is strictly Russian domain and is frowned upon (I personally have different opinion).
kornhole 3y ago
Yes Russia did have some accounts and bought ads on US social media some years ago, but analysis showed it had marginal effect. They are outsiders on US run social media platforms. The real power is in the hands of those running the social media platforms that can suppress or send viral what they want with a few adjustments. That certainly happened and continues still now aided by AI.
- SSLy 3y ago
  They have had impact outside of USA.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  > some years ago sweet summer child... Russia is fighting an expansionary offensive war and is full throttle instigating division in the entire Western mediascape. Here's a small taste from a few months ago: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-russian-influence-operations-are-among-the-biggest-its-taken-d https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-...
  - kornhole 3y ago
    Oh thank you for the sweet compliment. However, I am probably older than you and have studied psychological operations and cognitive warfare for many years. I am not sure of what point you are trying to make about Russia by sending a US state media article about China.
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      Idc how old you are or what you studied if you can’t make a point with evidence. You can’t even read well since the title and article clearly mention it includes Russian influence operations. “ Russian anti-Ukraine network spoofed Washington Post and Fox News Separately, Meta said on Tuesday that it was continuing to take down fake accounts and ban fraudulent websites connected to a Russian influence operation aimed at eroding support for Ukraine.” My point is obvious; that you think Russian influence operations were some one-off from years ago is a naive uneducated farce. They are over a decade long and continuous, somehow missed by all your age and studying. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency How about Japanese media then? https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/russian-influence-operations-europe-us/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/...
johnnyworker 3y ago
Creating counter-spam doesn't "fix" that, it just helps destroy the public space. > If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. [..] And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please. -- Hannah Arendt, https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-from-an-interview/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-fr... And as Snowden tweeted January 11th: > Institutions are burning the public's faith in them at the precise moment in history when we have developed the capacity to replace them with algorithms. > A revolution is coming, and if you thought human judgment was bad, just wait until you see what replaces it. I don't get why the standard should be the deception of "the other", who is also crooked. Why not do good things one can be honest about? Instead of maintaining several identities and narratives and a constant uphill battle in quicksand of one's own making, one could just build on top of previous achievements. It would be much more effective, it would make the US rich and respected in the world. But it would make some individuals less insanely wealthy [0], so that's not an option. It's like the drunk looking for the key under the lamp post instead of where it was lost. [0] Oxfam just reported that the 5 richest people doubled their fortune in the last 3 years while 5 billion got poorer.

mschuster91 3y ago

Russia doesn't need fancy "AI" to do this. Human operators and a few well-designed scripts make botting very easy.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

EGreg 3y ago

TikTok algo can do it more subtly through prioritizing other people’s media, selectively amplifying legitimately generated content

Waterluvian 3y ago
There was a period of time last year where TikTok really wanted me to see the Canadian government as an unmitigated disaster. Just endless scrolls of random mouth frothers screaming about it. Not opining on the matter specifically; just that TikTok had a very clear opinion on what I ought to think.
- FpUser 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    Yeah I’m not interested in discussing the subject matter here.
    - datavirtue 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - Kerb_ 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      It’s not really about deciding if one trusts the government or not. That’s an oversimplification of one’s civic responsibility to study the issues and make informed decisions. The main harm astroturfing does is convert everything into black and white oversimplifications. It turns people into unthinkers. They pick a side and then act like it’s some sort of battle against the other side.
      - Kerb_ 3y ago
        Of course! I didn't actually rewrite my framework just to counter someone on the internet. I said that more to call out the low effort response as fitting an extremely predictable pattern of uninformed people trying to pose their drive-by hot take as fact, and the unreliability of said information in practice
      - FpUser 3y ago
        I do not pick sides. The only things I see are changes in quality of life. One must be blind not to see where it is going. As for "informed decisions" - I do make those based on what I see and do not need help from TikTok or anything else. HN is about the only social media I participate in when I need a quick brake from working on computer.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      >"It sounds like how American conservatives discuss cities they've never been to." I live in Toronto since 92 and I can compare back then and now so don't assume things.

frogamel 3y ago

I've noticed a huge surge in negativity and pessimism on English-language social media within the last year or so, roughly corresponding with to the spread of LLM tech. I do wonder whether these people are mostly just bots.

rightbyte 3y ago
Twitter and Reddit seem to be filled with bots and shills nowadays. I think it is a consequence of actual users leaving for private groups (Discord, Telegram, Whatsapp) or small forums. But ye surely LLMs are increasing the bot count.
fulladder 3y ago
This seems to be happening in English-language meat space too, so I don't think it's bots. I'm not sure what happened. The trend started in 2023 and seems to be ongoing, though I imagine people will get over it soon. I've heard it suggested that people are just in a funk about the economy, at least in the U.S.
shadoxx 3y ago
I've noticed this as well, across pretty much all of social media that I use. I can't quite place my finger on it, whether it's just a reflection of the state of the collective feelings of people, or if it's mass manipulation. At this point it could be both.

FpUser 3y ago

Russia also drops people out of the windows. Should we (the supposedly humane West) start doing the same just because they do?

hsuduebc2 3y ago
They can do whatever they want to themselves. We are talking about attacking others. You can't ignore direct hit into face.
- FpUser 3y ago
  The talk was: >"The CIA probably realizes it doesn't need to fund rebel groups [1] or use local journalists/clergy [2] to instigate a regime change these days" To me it sounds like instigating regime changes all over the places. The US is famous for doing so and then leaving behind multiple victims.
  - hsuduebc2 3y ago
    And another powers are not? Especially in recent age. russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack. They play same game quite differently.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      >"russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack" So you want the US to do the same? It had already "conquered" some countries. I do not think anybody likes the outcome. It looks more like a crime. >"And another powers are not?" I thought whataboutism is strictly Russian domain and is frowned upon (I personally have different opinion).

kornhole 3y ago

Yes Russia did have some accounts and bought ads on US social media some years ago, but analysis showed it had marginal effect. They are outsiders on US run social media platforms. The real power is in the hands of those running the social media platforms that can suppress or send viral what they want with a few adjustments. That certainly happened and continues still now aided by AI.

SSLy 3y ago
They have had impact outside of USA.
reducesuffering 3y ago
> some years ago sweet summer child... Russia is fighting an expansionary offensive war and is full throttle instigating division in the entire Western mediascape. Here's a small taste from a few months ago: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-russian-influence-operations-are-among-the-biggest-its-taken-d https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-...
- kornhole 3y ago
  Oh thank you for the sweet compliment. However, I am probably older than you and have studied psychological operations and cognitive warfare for many years. I am not sure of what point you are trying to make about Russia by sending a US state media article about China.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    Idc how old you are or what you studied if you can’t make a point with evidence. You can’t even read well since the title and article clearly mention it includes Russian influence operations. “ Russian anti-Ukraine network spoofed Washington Post and Fox News Separately, Meta said on Tuesday that it was continuing to take down fake accounts and ban fraudulent websites connected to a Russian influence operation aimed at eroding support for Ukraine.” My point is obvious; that you think Russian influence operations were some one-off from years ago is a naive uneducated farce. They are over a decade long and continuous, somehow missed by all your age and studying. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency How about Japanese media then? https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/russian-influence-operations-europe-us/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/...

johnnyworker 3y ago

Creating counter-spam doesn't "fix" that, it just helps destroy the public space. > If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. [..] And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please. -- Hannah Arendt, https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-from-an-interview/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-fr... And as Snowden tweeted January 11th: > Institutions are burning the public's faith in them at the precise moment in history when we have developed the capacity to replace them with algorithms. > A revolution is coming, and if you thought human judgment was bad, just wait until you see what replaces it. I don't get why the standard should be the deception of "the other", who is also crooked. Why not do good things one can be honest about? Instead of maintaining several identities and narratives and a constant uphill battle in quicksand of one's own making, one could just build on top of previous achievements. It would be much more effective, it would make the US rich and respected in the world. But it would make some individuals less insanely wealthy [0], so that's not an option. It's like the drunk looking for the key under the lamp post instead of where it was lost. [0] Oxfam just reported that the 5 richest people doubled their fortune in the last 3 years while 5 billion got poorer.