8 ms·

The CIA probably realizes it doesn't need to fund rebel groups [1] or use local journalists/clergy [2] to instigate a regime change these days - they can just f

The CIA probably realizes it doesn't need to fund rebel groups [1] or use local journalists/clergy [2] to instigate a regime change these days - they can just flood a target country's social media with AI-generated propaganda. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair 2. https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hearings/ciasuseofjournal00unit.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/hear...

idopmstuff 3y ago
I would wager a whole lot of money that the CIA is very much on top of this one.
- iwontberude 3y ago
  World peace incoming
  - xbar 3y ago
    Phew. I was getting scared that someone would use it to cause instability.
iknowstuff 3y ago
I sure hope so, Russia has 100% been doing it, with multiple documented „botfarms” (more like fake identity verification farms)
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Russia doesn't need fancy "AI" to do this. Human operators and a few well-designed scripts make botting very easy.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- EGreg 3y ago
  TikTok algo can do it more subtly through prioritizing other people’s media, selectively amplifying legitimately generated content
  - Waterluvian 3y ago
    There was a period of time last year where TikTok really wanted me to see the Canadian government as an unmitigated disaster. Just endless scrolls of random mouth frothers screaming about it. Not opining on the matter specifically; just that TikTok had a very clear opinion on what I ought to think.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Waterluvian 3y ago
        Yeah I’m not interested in discussing the subject matter here.
        datavirtue 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - Kerb_ 3y ago
        [flagged]
        Waterluvian 3y ago
        It’s not really about deciding if one trusts the government or not. That’s an oversimplification of one’s civic responsibility to study the issues and make informed decisions. The main harm astroturfing does is convert everything into black and white oversimplifications. It turns people into unthinkers. They pick a side and then act like it’s some sort of battle against the other side.
- frogamel 3y ago
  I've noticed a huge surge in negativity and pessimism on English-language social media within the last year or so, roughly corresponding with to the spread of LLM tech. I do wonder whether these people are mostly just bots.
  - rightbyte 3y ago
    Twitter and Reddit seem to be filled with bots and shills nowadays. I think it is a consequence of actual users leaving for private groups (Discord, Telegram, Whatsapp) or small forums. But ye surely LLMs are increasing the bot count.
  - fulladder 3y ago
    This seems to be happening in English-language meat space too, so I don't think it's bots. I'm not sure what happened. The trend started in 2023 and seems to be ongoing, though I imagine people will get over it soon. I've heard it suggested that people are just in a funk about the economy, at least in the U.S.
  - shadoxx 3y ago
    I've noticed this as well, across pretty much all of social media that I use. I can't quite place my finger on it, whether it's just a reflection of the state of the collective feelings of people, or if it's mass manipulation. At this point it could be both.
- FpUser 3y ago
  Russia also drops people out of the windows. Should we (the supposedly humane West) start doing the same just because they do?
  - hsuduebc2 3y ago
    They can do whatever they want to themselves. We are talking about attacking others. You can't ignore direct hit into face.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      The talk was: >"The CIA probably realizes it doesn't need to fund rebel groups [1] or use local journalists/clergy [2] to instigate a regime change these days" To me it sounds like instigating regime changes all over the places. The US is famous for doing so and then leaving behind multiple victims.
      - hsuduebc2 3y ago
        And another powers are not? Especially in recent age. russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack. They play same game quite differently.
        FpUser 3y ago
        >"russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack" So you want the US to do the same? It had already "conquered" some countries. I do not think anybody likes the outcome. It looks more like a crime. >"And another powers are not?" I thought whataboutism is strictly Russian domain and is frowned upon (I personally have different opinion).
- kornhole 3y ago
  Yes Russia did have some accounts and bought ads on US social media some years ago, but analysis showed it had marginal effect. They are outsiders on US run social media platforms. The real power is in the hands of those running the social media platforms that can suppress or send viral what they want with a few adjustments. That certainly happened and continues still now aided by AI.
  - SSLy 3y ago
    They have had impact outside of USA.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    > some years ago sweet summer child... Russia is fighting an expansionary offensive war and is full throttle instigating division in the entire Western mediascape. Here's a small taste from a few months ago: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-russian-influence-operations-are-among-the-biggest-its-taken-d https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-...
    - kornhole 3y ago
      Oh thank you for the sweet compliment. However, I am probably older than you and have studied psychological operations and cognitive warfare for many years. I am not sure of what point you are trying to make about Russia by sending a US state media article about China.
      - reducesuffering 3y ago
        Idc how old you are or what you studied if you can’t make a point with evidence. You can’t even read well since the title and article clearly mention it includes Russian influence operations. “ Russian anti-Ukraine network spoofed Washington Post and Fox News Separately, Meta said on Tuesday that it was continuing to take down fake accounts and ban fraudulent websites connected to a Russian influence operation aimed at eroding support for Ukraine.” My point is obvious; that you think Russian influence operations were some one-off from years ago is a naive uneducated farce. They are over a decade long and continuous, somehow missed by all your age and studying. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency How about Japanese media then? https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/russian-influence-operations-europe-us/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/...
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  Creating counter-spam doesn't "fix" that, it just helps destroy the public space. > If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. [..] And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please. -- Hannah Arendt, https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-from-an-interview/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-fr... And as Snowden tweeted January 11th: > Institutions are burning the public's faith in them at the precise moment in history when we have developed the capacity to replace them with algorithms. > A revolution is coming, and if you thought human judgment was bad, just wait until you see what replaces it. I don't get why the standard should be the deception of "the other", who is also crooked. Why not do good things one can be honest about? Instead of maintaining several identities and narratives and a constant uphill battle in quicksand of one's own making, one could just build on top of previous achievements. It would be much more effective, it would make the US rich and respected in the world. But it would make some individuals less insanely wealthy [0], so that's not an option. It's like the drunk looking for the key under the lamp post instead of where it was lost. [0] Oxfam just reported that the 5 richest people doubled their fortune in the last 3 years while 5 billion got poorer.
autoexec 3y ago
I don't know why they'd need OpenAI though. Our government's three letter agencies must have a one hell of a data set to train their own AI on.
- mholm 3y ago
  Hell of a dataset, but less of the talent. Takes a very specific type of person to get to the front of the AI field, then take a government salary using your knowledge for (what could be) war and surveillance, likely against any public interest in alignment.
- leodriesch 3y ago
  I’d say talent? Outside of OpenAI no team has been able to release a model as capable as GPT-4, and I’m unsure if the CIA has been prioritizing LLM experts in their hiring.
- AYBABTME 3y ago
  The best brains don't go work for the CIA or the DoD, or at least they don't stay. It's not an environment in which you can strive and do your best work. Nothing against what they do, I'm ex-military, but the culture in these institutions just doesn't cut it for the Vibes required. In addition, one's career is much better served working in the free market than submitting yourself to the government's arbitrary levelling/career ladder. The government is just structurally incapable of attracting this type of top A+ talent at scale. They get and keep smart people but not the smartest people. For this, they absolutely need to use industry relations. Just picture yourself in a position to work at either OpenAI, or GE, the DoD or GM. The average tech worker will much prefer the hip SV company than the old quasi-government dinosaur corporation or the government's agency.
  - jart 3y ago
    I'm sure the environment is fine, it's just a question of economics. The comp for mere software engineers these days is more than the commander in chief gets paid. Usually what organizations like USDS try to do to attract coders is get them interested in a "tour of duty" where they rough it for a few years on a major general's salary before going back to their old jobs generating text, managing cat videos, and getting people to click on ads. It's a busted system.
petre 3y ago
I don't know how that works in Yemen or Gaza. Do they have any networking infrastructure left?

idopmstuff 3y ago

I would wager a whole lot of money that the CIA is very much on top of this one.

iwontberude 3y ago
World peace incoming
- xbar 3y ago
  Phew. I was getting scared that someone would use it to cause instability.

iknowstuff 3y ago

I sure hope so, Russia has 100% been doing it, with multiple documented „botfarms” (more like fake identity verification farms)

mschuster91 3y ago
Russia doesn't need fancy "AI" to do this. Human operators and a few well-designed scripts make botting very easy.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
EGreg 3y ago
TikTok algo can do it more subtly through prioritizing other people’s media, selectively amplifying legitimately generated content
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  There was a period of time last year where TikTok really wanted me to see the Canadian government as an unmitigated disaster. Just endless scrolls of random mouth frothers screaming about it. Not opining on the matter specifically; just that TikTok had a very clear opinion on what I ought to think.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Waterluvian 3y ago
      Yeah I’m not interested in discussing the subject matter here.
      - datavirtue 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - Kerb_ 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - Waterluvian 3y ago
        It’s not really about deciding if one trusts the government or not. That’s an oversimplification of one’s civic responsibility to study the issues and make informed decisions. The main harm astroturfing does is convert everything into black and white oversimplifications. It turns people into unthinkers. They pick a side and then act like it’s some sort of battle against the other side.
frogamel 3y ago
I've noticed a huge surge in negativity and pessimism on English-language social media within the last year or so, roughly corresponding with to the spread of LLM tech. I do wonder whether these people are mostly just bots.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Twitter and Reddit seem to be filled with bots and shills nowadays. I think it is a consequence of actual users leaving for private groups (Discord, Telegram, Whatsapp) or small forums. But ye surely LLMs are increasing the bot count.
- fulladder 3y ago
  This seems to be happening in English-language meat space too, so I don't think it's bots. I'm not sure what happened. The trend started in 2023 and seems to be ongoing, though I imagine people will get over it soon. I've heard it suggested that people are just in a funk about the economy, at least in the U.S.
- shadoxx 3y ago
  I've noticed this as well, across pretty much all of social media that I use. I can't quite place my finger on it, whether it's just a reflection of the state of the collective feelings of people, or if it's mass manipulation. At this point it could be both.
FpUser 3y ago
Russia also drops people out of the windows. Should we (the supposedly humane West) start doing the same just because they do?
- hsuduebc2 3y ago
  They can do whatever they want to themselves. We are talking about attacking others. You can't ignore direct hit into face.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    The talk was: >"The CIA probably realizes it doesn't need to fund rebel groups [1] or use local journalists/clergy [2] to instigate a regime change these days" To me it sounds like instigating regime changes all over the places. The US is famous for doing so and then leaving behind multiple victims.
    - hsuduebc2 3y ago
      And another powers are not? Especially in recent age. russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack. They play same game quite differently.
      - FpUser 3y ago
        >"russians are conquering neighbouring countries and simultaneously threating with nuclear attack" So you want the US to do the same? It had already "conquered" some countries. I do not think anybody likes the outcome. It looks more like a crime. >"And another powers are not?" I thought whataboutism is strictly Russian domain and is frowned upon (I personally have different opinion).
kornhole 3y ago
Yes Russia did have some accounts and bought ads on US social media some years ago, but analysis showed it had marginal effect. They are outsiders on US run social media platforms. The real power is in the hands of those running the social media platforms that can suppress or send viral what they want with a few adjustments. That certainly happened and continues still now aided by AI.
- SSLy 3y ago
  They have had impact outside of USA.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  > some years ago sweet summer child... Russia is fighting an expansionary offensive war and is full throttle instigating division in the entire Western mediascape. Here's a small taste from a few months ago: https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-russian-influence-operations-are-among-the-biggest-its-taken-d https://www.npr.org/2023/08/29/1196117574/meta-says-chinese-...
  - kornhole 3y ago
    Oh thank you for the sweet compliment. However, I am probably older than you and have studied psychological operations and cognitive warfare for many years. I am not sure of what point you are trying to make about Russia by sending a US state media article about China.
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      Idc how old you are or what you studied if you can’t make a point with evidence. You can’t even read well since the title and article clearly mention it includes Russian influence operations. “ Russian anti-Ukraine network spoofed Washington Post and Fox News Separately, Meta said on Tuesday that it was continuing to take down fake accounts and ban fraudulent websites connected to a Russian influence operation aimed at eroding support for Ukraine.” My point is obvious; that you think Russian influence operations were some one-off from years ago is a naive uneducated farce. They are over a decade long and continuous, somehow missed by all your age and studying. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency How about Japanese media then? https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/russian-influence-operations-europe-us/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/08/26/world/politics/...
johnnyworker 3y ago
Creating counter-spam doesn't "fix" that, it just helps destroy the public space. > If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. [..] And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please. -- Hannah Arendt, https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-from-an-interview/ https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1978/10/26/hannah-arendt-fr... And as Snowden tweeted January 11th: > Institutions are burning the public's faith in them at the precise moment in history when we have developed the capacity to replace them with algorithms. > A revolution is coming, and if you thought human judgment was bad, just wait until you see what replaces it. I don't get why the standard should be the deception of "the other", who is also crooked. Why not do good things one can be honest about? Instead of maintaining several identities and narratives and a constant uphill battle in quicksand of one's own making, one could just build on top of previous achievements. It would be much more effective, it would make the US rich and respected in the world. But it would make some individuals less insanely wealthy [0], so that's not an option. It's like the drunk looking for the key under the lamp post instead of where it was lost. [0] Oxfam just reported that the 5 richest people doubled their fortune in the last 3 years while 5 billion got poorer.

autoexec 3y ago

I don't know why they'd need OpenAI though. Our government's three letter agencies must have a one hell of a data set to train their own AI on.

mholm 3y ago
Hell of a dataset, but less of the talent. Takes a very specific type of person to get to the front of the AI field, then take a government salary using your knowledge for (what could be) war and surveillance, likely against any public interest in alignment.
leodriesch 3y ago
I’d say talent? Outside of OpenAI no team has been able to release a model as capable as GPT-4, and I’m unsure if the CIA has been prioritizing LLM experts in their hiring.
AYBABTME 3y ago
The best brains don't go work for the CIA or the DoD, or at least they don't stay. It's not an environment in which you can strive and do your best work. Nothing against what they do, I'm ex-military, but the culture in these institutions just doesn't cut it for the Vibes required. In addition, one's career is much better served working in the free market than submitting yourself to the government's arbitrary levelling/career ladder. The government is just structurally incapable of attracting this type of top A+ talent at scale. They get and keep smart people but not the smartest people. For this, they absolutely need to use industry relations. Just picture yourself in a position to work at either OpenAI, or GE, the DoD or GM. The average tech worker will much prefer the hip SV company than the old quasi-government dinosaur corporation or the government's agency.
- jart 3y ago
  I'm sure the environment is fine, it's just a question of economics. The comp for mere software engineers these days is more than the commander in chief gets paid. Usually what organizations like USDS try to do to attract coders is get them interested in a "tour of duty" where they rough it for a few years on a major general's salary before going back to their old jobs generating text, managing cat videos, and getting people to click on ads. It's a busted system.

petre 3y ago

I don't know how that works in Yemen or Gaza. Do they have any networking infrastructure left?