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> Having different categories and words for food and poison is useful. The distinction is not arbitrary. A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison

> Having different categories and words for food and poison is useful. The distinction is not arbitrary. A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. > It's not random or arbitrary. No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. And it is a useful concept to me here in this context because it distinguishes things a person is deciding from things that are just real in-and-of-themselves out here in spacetime.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
>No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. Opposed to what what exactly? Nothing that can be perceived, processed, or communicated by humans fails this test. In that case, all language, logic, and thought is arbitrary. 2+2=4 is arbitrary, because someone chose definitions which fit within a logical construct of assumptions, and those rules too were selected by humans. Something is not arbitrary simply because alternatives may exist. Alternatives can be more or less useful, and useful for different purposes. Selection of a definition fit for purpose, is therefore not arbitrary, specifically Because it comes with implications and consequences. It is a distinction with a difference >A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. I truly dont understand your example. Is it not a productive use of time to know if a hot pepper is food or poison, despite being on a spectrum? It seems to prove the opposite. Most things are not perfect binaries, but society doesn't throw up our hands and say it isn't productive to delineate food from poison. A definition of poison that excludes hot peppers is clearly more useful for nearly everyone, nearly all the time. I go by the typical dictionary definitions or arbitrary: a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something A definition that is thoughtfully constructed to fit within the greater body of human knowledge, logic, and utility is not random, capricious, or motivated by personal preference or convenience.
- drekk 3y ago
  2+2=4 is arbitrary. Humans decided base 10 makes sense because we have ten fingers. It's arbitrary in the sense that it's something we picked out of convenience. Base 10 isn't some real thing existing in reality that you can touch or sense. Language is also arbitrary. Humans came up with it! Wasn't like Proto-Indo-European was something objective and real that we discovered. We settled on it out of convenience and necessity. If someone is allergic to peanuts, they could definitely say it's poison. Categories aren't objective.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    Yeah, I just think that is kinda a garbage perspective. If your perspective is so great that everything is arbitrary simply because it is the product of the human mind, then the term is meaningless. why bother even using it. Similarly, if someone treats every definitions as fluid, and makes no attempt seek logical or objective consistency, I don't see the point in conversing with them. I will just assume the true meaning of everything you said is enthusiastic agreement. If you disagree, I can waive your point away as the arbitrary and pointless ravings of a human mind.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

>No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. Opposed to what what exactly? Nothing that can be perceived, processed, or communicated by humans fails this test. In that case, all language, logic, and thought is arbitrary. 2+2=4 is arbitrary, because someone chose definitions which fit within a logical construct of assumptions, and those rules too were selected by humans. Something is not arbitrary simply because alternatives may exist. Alternatives can be more or less useful, and useful for different purposes. Selection of a definition fit for purpose, is therefore not arbitrary, specifically Because it comes with implications and consequences. It is a distinction with a difference >A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. I truly dont understand your example. Is it not a productive use of time to know if a hot pepper is food or poison, despite being on a spectrum? It seems to prove the opposite. Most things are not perfect binaries, but society doesn't throw up our hands and say it isn't productive to delineate food from poison. A definition of poison that excludes hot peppers is clearly more useful for nearly everyone, nearly all the time. I go by the typical dictionary definitions or arbitrary: a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something A definition that is thoughtfully constructed to fit within the greater body of human knowledge, logic, and utility is not random, capricious, or motivated by personal preference or convenience.

drekk 3y ago
2+2=4 is arbitrary. Humans decided base 10 makes sense because we have ten fingers. It's arbitrary in the sense that it's something we picked out of convenience. Base 10 isn't some real thing existing in reality that you can touch or sense. Language is also arbitrary. Humans came up with it! Wasn't like Proto-Indo-European was something objective and real that we discovered. We settled on it out of convenience and necessity. If someone is allergic to peanuts, they could definitely say it's poison. Categories aren't objective.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  Yeah, I just think that is kinda a garbage perspective. If your perspective is so great that everything is arbitrary simply because it is the product of the human mind, then the term is meaningless. why bother even using it. Similarly, if someone treats every definitions as fluid, and makes no attempt seek logical or objective consistency, I don't see the point in conversing with them. I will just assume the true meaning of everything you said is enthusiastic agreement. If you disagree, I can waive your point away as the arbitrary and pointless ravings of a human mind.