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Are viruses alive? They’re pretty close. That pretty-closeness is evidence that the definition of ‘living’ is arbitrary. In high school biology, ‘living’ was a

Are viruses alive? They’re pretty close. That pretty-closeness is evidence that the definition of ‘living’ is arbitrary. In high school biology, ‘living’ was a list of five points to be memorized, and those points were definitely made up by humans. And viruses were used as a sorta-joke by the teacher to illustrate that it’s arbitrary. Why I cared enough to dig into that: every word/category is arbitrary; words and word-logic only help us insofar as they tell us useful things about reality.

s1artibartfast 3y ago
> every word/category is arbitrary; words and word-logic only help us insofar as they tell us useful things about reality haha, having useful meanings is the exact thing that makes word categories non-arbitrary. Having different categories and words for food and poison is useful. The distinction is not arbitrary. Similarly, the concept and definition of living/inanimate is not arbitrary. It defiantly tells us something useful. You could say the exact definition of "living" isn't clear, but that doesn't mean every definition is equally good. For example, “things that are purple“, would be a pretty crappy definition of "living". It's not random or arbitrary. Thought and logic went into crafting the definition.
- masspro 3y ago
  > Having different categories and words for food and poison is useful. The distinction is not arbitrary. A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. > It's not random or arbitrary. No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. And it is a useful concept to me here in this context because it distinguishes things a person is deciding from things that are just real in-and-of-themselves out here in spacetime.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    >No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. Opposed to what what exactly? Nothing that can be perceived, processed, or communicated by humans fails this test. In that case, all language, logic, and thought is arbitrary. 2+2=4 is arbitrary, because someone chose definitions which fit within a logical construct of assumptions, and those rules too were selected by humans. Something is not arbitrary simply because alternatives may exist. Alternatives can be more or less useful, and useful for different purposes. Selection of a definition fit for purpose, is therefore not arbitrary, specifically Because it comes with implications and consequences. It is a distinction with a difference >A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. I truly dont understand your example. Is it not a productive use of time to know if a hot pepper is food or poison, despite being on a spectrum? It seems to prove the opposite. Most things are not perfect binaries, but society doesn't throw up our hands and say it isn't productive to delineate food from poison. A definition of poison that excludes hot peppers is clearly more useful for nearly everyone, nearly all the time. I go by the typical dictionary definitions or arbitrary: a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something A definition that is thoughtfully constructed to fit within the greater body of human knowledge, logic, and utility is not random, capricious, or motivated by personal preference or convenience.
    - drekk 3y ago
      2+2=4 is arbitrary. Humans decided base 10 makes sense because we have ten fingers. It's arbitrary in the sense that it's something we picked out of convenience. Base 10 isn't some real thing existing in reality that you can touch or sense. Language is also arbitrary. Humans came up with it! Wasn't like Proto-Indo-European was something objective and real that we discovered. We settled on it out of convenience and necessity. If someone is allergic to peanuts, they could definitely say it's poison. Categories aren't objective.
bad_user 3y ago
The definition of life is based on what we observe, on empirical observations, which is the best kind of knowledge. The current definition may not be perfect, but it's useful enough to predict phenomena, such as how life on other planets might look like. And this is the opposite of arbitrary. You're getting into metaphysics, which is in general not useful. I mean, Nietzsche's essay on words being lies is entertaining and all, but ultimately just something to contemplate when stoned.

s1artibartfast 3y ago

> every word/category is arbitrary; words and word-logic only help us insofar as they tell us useful things about reality haha, having useful meanings is the exact thing that makes word categories non-arbitrary. Having different categories and words for food and poison is useful. The distinction is not arbitrary. Similarly, the concept and definition of living/inanimate is not arbitrary. It defiantly tells us something useful. You could say the exact definition of "living" isn't clear, but that doesn't mean every definition is equally good. For example, “things that are purple“, would be a pretty crappy definition of "living". It's not random or arbitrary. Thought and logic went into crafting the definition.

masspro 3y ago
> Having different categories and words for food and poison is useful. The distinction is not arbitrary. A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. > It's not random or arbitrary. No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. And it is a useful concept to me here in this context because it distinguishes things a person is deciding from things that are just real in-and-of-themselves out here in spacetime.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  >No one said arbitrary == random! Arbitrary in this discussion is meaning “a person chose it”. Opposed to what what exactly? Nothing that can be perceived, processed, or communicated by humans fails this test. In that case, all language, logic, and thought is arbitrary. 2+2=4 is arbitrary, because someone chose definitions which fit within a logical construct of assumptions, and those rules too were selected by humans. Something is not arbitrary simply because alternatives may exist. Alternatives can be more or less useful, and useful for different purposes. Selection of a definition fit for purpose, is therefore not arbitrary, specifically Because it comes with implications and consequences. It is a distinction with a difference >A very hot pepper has features of both food and poison. Most things are not perfect binaries, and if you put a dividing line on a spectrum, the placement of that dividing line must be arbitrary. Obviously people try to come up with good definitions of things, but that still doesn’t mean it’s a productive use of anyone’s time/effort deciding which side of an arbitrary divide a thing falls into. I truly dont understand your example. Is it not a productive use of time to know if a hot pepper is food or poison, despite being on a spectrum? It seems to prove the opposite. Most things are not perfect binaries, but society doesn't throw up our hands and say it isn't productive to delineate food from poison. A definition of poison that excludes hot peppers is clearly more useful for nearly everyone, nearly all the time. I go by the typical dictionary definitions or arbitrary: a: existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will b: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something A definition that is thoughtfully constructed to fit within the greater body of human knowledge, logic, and utility is not random, capricious, or motivated by personal preference or convenience.
  - drekk 3y ago
    2+2=4 is arbitrary. Humans decided base 10 makes sense because we have ten fingers. It's arbitrary in the sense that it's something we picked out of convenience. Base 10 isn't some real thing existing in reality that you can touch or sense. Language is also arbitrary. Humans came up with it! Wasn't like Proto-Indo-European was something objective and real that we discovered. We settled on it out of convenience and necessity. If someone is allergic to peanuts, they could definitely say it's poison. Categories aren't objective.

bad_user 3y ago

The definition of life is based on what we observe, on empirical observations, which is the best kind of knowledge. The current definition may not be perfect, but it's useful enough to predict phenomena, such as how life on other planets might look like. And this is the opposite of arbitrary. You're getting into metaphysics, which is in general not useful. I mean, Nietzsche's essay on words being lies is entertaining and all, but ultimately just something to contemplate when stoned.