4 ms·

People who value fresh produce are going to go out of the way to get it. If enough people do this, environments will adapt to that demand. NYC Chinatowns used t

by Aunche 3y ago

People who value fresh produce are going to go out of the way to get it. If enough people do this, environments will adapt to that demand. NYC Chinatowns used to be quite poor and discriminated against, but they were still able to establish their own supply chains that provides cheaper and fresher vegetables than anywhere else in the city because vegetables are a quintessential part of Chinese cuisine. Food deserts, like gentrification, is a concept that assumes that demand follows supply, which is the opposite of how things actually play out in real life.

superb_dev 3y ago
So people who live in a food dessert secretly don't really want any vegetables?
- abe_m 3y ago
  If people in the area generally wanted vegetables, someone would sell them. So the most likely case is that the vast majority of people in food desserts don't really want vegetables.
  - superb_dev 3y ago
    That's just too black and white. The other replies to the comment I replied too have much better explanations than I could give as to why
    - abe_m 3y ago
      We have a few convenience stores in my city that have started offering a small selection of fresh foods, something like a little basket with a few apples, oranges, and bananas. Some of them have expanded out into a full produce section. Others removed them entirely. Some are holding steady with the small basket. The stores are delivering what people are willing to buy in their areas.
freedomben 3y ago
I've been heavily involved in a city council before that was trying to attract stores (especially a grocery store), so I'm pretty familiar with how it works, and this mostly incorrect. In fact, people going out of their way to get the produce elsewhere works against a new store, because the stores see that as cannabilization should they open a new closer location. The decision to open new stores is mostly based on "number of daytime wallets in the area," which itself is mostly tied to the other existing businesses in the area. For example, for one major grocery chain, they wouldn't even consider it until we had 50,000 daytime wallets. For a commonly known gigantic home improvement chain, they wanted 100,000. It doesn't matter how badly people in the area want it. It just comes pretty mathematically with growth. If you already have a grocery store that doesn't carry fresh produce, you can (sometimes) improve things by speaking with the store management, but beyond that you're pretty much out of luck unless you are willing to open your own store.
- Aunche 3y ago
  By "go out of the way," I just mean make some sort of sacrifice when it comes to getting fresh produce (e.g. gardening or paying more for vegetables). Even when we're talking about leaving your area, you're still increasing demand for vegetables somewhere, which prevents food deserts from spreading.
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  Dollar stores are the killer here. They can easily undercut regular grocery stores (low selection, low worker count) but they do not have produce sections. So people just give up the produce section to get all the other processed stuff cheaper.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Yes indeed, that's a real challenge
  - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
    Thankfully our local dollar store has a pretty decent produce section. Dollar General. I'm aware that we have one of the better dollar generals out there. (Hillsboro KS) By decent I mean decent for a dollar store. They have apples and oranges and cabbage and lettuce etc, no beets or leeks or fresh cilantro.
Spivak 3y ago
> a concept that assumes that demand follows supply This is wayyyy too black and white. What is cheap and available is what becomes people's diets and historically folks are extremely creative with the stuff that's around. This is pretty much the entire story of culinary history and likely where all your favorite dishes originated. One of the reasons tea was so unbelievably popular in western Europe was because the staple diets of most folks was stale bread and people needed something to wash it down that didn't taste awful. Cheese follows a supply of milk and a demand to not have it spoil. So you're right that just having the supply there doesn't work because there's no pressure to actually use any of it. The most economical foods by a wide margin non-perishables. When you get your CSA box you've already paid for the veggies so you're motivated to use them up before they turn but at the grocery store why would you even bother when you have anything else more important to do? If you were just handed a sack of apples you might find a way to use them all but "paying money to do more work" in an environment where every adult in the household works a full-time job, plus having kids or social obligations is quite the ask. Buying those apple bars is a much easier buy than fresh apples because they don't have an timer attached to them, you're guaranteed to extract all the value even when you're busy and not home for a few days. And this isn't some new phenomenon, "cutting out work for wives and mothers trying to put food on the table every night" is an entire industry. Go look at any food ads from the 20th century.
- abe_m 3y ago
  That's a lot of words to say that fresh foods aren't available close by because people don't want them. They are demanding convenience foods with their dollars, so that is what the vendors provide. Forcing a store into existence by government (or other) proclamation to supply fresh foods won't make people buy them.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    That's one read for the situation but that's not really how I meant it. My takeaway is that fresh produce is far too expensive in dollars to have any hope of competing with non-perishables in value. When the price of the food at your local grocery store is dominated by the price of the transportation to get it there low-value foods that either cause loss through expiration and/or require additional work to turn into a meal have no chance when they're the same price as non-perishables and prepared food. So yes people are demanding them with their dollars but that's less of a preference for them and more they would be stupid not to if budget is of any concern. If all the fresh produce in the grocery store was $0 I bet consumers would choose it overwhelmingly compared to alternatives. So I contend there is a number where fresh produce wins but we're not even close to it. Because you have to save on dollars to make the additional work/risk worth it but right now you don't. And it's one thing to be like "well that's the market for ya" but we already heavily subsidize agriculture it's not that crazy to also subsidize produce at the point of sale both to reduce waste during harvest and to encourage healthier eating.

by Aunche 3y ago

superb_dev 3y ago

So people who live in a food dessert secretly don't really want any vegetables?

abe_m 3y ago
If people in the area generally wanted vegetables, someone would sell them. So the most likely case is that the vast majority of people in food desserts don't really want vegetables.
- superb_dev 3y ago
  That's just too black and white. The other replies to the comment I replied too have much better explanations than I could give as to why
  - abe_m 3y ago
    We have a few convenience stores in my city that have started offering a small selection of fresh foods, something like a little basket with a few apples, oranges, and bananas. Some of them have expanded out into a full produce section. Others removed them entirely. Some are holding steady with the small basket. The stores are delivering what people are willing to buy in their areas.

freedomben 3y ago

I've been heavily involved in a city council before that was trying to attract stores (especially a grocery store), so I'm pretty familiar with how it works, and this mostly incorrect. In fact, people going out of their way to get the produce elsewhere works against a new store, because the stores see that as cannabilization should they open a new closer location. The decision to open new stores is mostly based on "number of daytime wallets in the area," which itself is mostly tied to the other existing businesses in the area. For example, for one major grocery chain, they wouldn't even consider it until we had 50,000 daytime wallets. For a commonly known gigantic home improvement chain, they wanted 100,000. It doesn't matter how badly people in the area want it. It just comes pretty mathematically with growth. If you already have a grocery store that doesn't carry fresh produce, you can (sometimes) improve things by speaking with the store management, but beyond that you're pretty much out of luck unless you are willing to open your own store.

Aunche 3y ago
By "go out of the way," I just mean make some sort of sacrifice when it comes to getting fresh produce (e.g. gardening or paying more for vegetables). Even when we're talking about leaving your area, you're still increasing demand for vegetables somewhere, which prevents food deserts from spreading.
Workaccount2 3y ago
Dollar stores are the killer here. They can easily undercut regular grocery stores (low selection, low worker count) but they do not have produce sections. So people just give up the produce section to get all the other processed stuff cheaper.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Yes indeed, that's a real challenge
- BenjiWiebe 3y ago
  Thankfully our local dollar store has a pretty decent produce section. Dollar General. I'm aware that we have one of the better dollar generals out there. (Hillsboro KS) By decent I mean decent for a dollar store. They have apples and oranges and cabbage and lettuce etc, no beets or leeks or fresh cilantro.

Spivak 3y ago

> a concept that assumes that demand follows supply This is wayyyy too black and white. What is cheap and available is what becomes people's diets and historically folks are extremely creative with the stuff that's around. This is pretty much the entire story of culinary history and likely where all your favorite dishes originated. One of the reasons tea was so unbelievably popular in western Europe was because the staple diets of most folks was stale bread and people needed something to wash it down that didn't taste awful. Cheese follows a supply of milk and a demand to not have it spoil. So you're right that just having the supply there doesn't work because there's no pressure to actually use any of it. The most economical foods by a wide margin non-perishables. When you get your CSA box you've already paid for the veggies so you're motivated to use them up before they turn but at the grocery store why would you even bother when you have anything else more important to do? If you were just handed a sack of apples you might find a way to use them all but "paying money to do more work" in an environment where every adult in the household works a full-time job, plus having kids or social obligations is quite the ask. Buying those apple bars is a much easier buy than fresh apples because they don't have an timer attached to them, you're guaranteed to extract all the value even when you're busy and not home for a few days. And this isn't some new phenomenon, "cutting out work for wives and mothers trying to put food on the table every night" is an entire industry. Go look at any food ads from the 20th century.

abe_m 3y ago
That's a lot of words to say that fresh foods aren't available close by because people don't want them. They are demanding convenience foods with their dollars, so that is what the vendors provide. Forcing a store into existence by government (or other) proclamation to supply fresh foods won't make people buy them.
- Spivak 3y ago
  That's one read for the situation but that's not really how I meant it. My takeaway is that fresh produce is far too expensive in dollars to have any hope of competing with non-perishables in value. When the price of the food at your local grocery store is dominated by the price of the transportation to get it there low-value foods that either cause loss through expiration and/or require additional work to turn into a meal have no chance when they're the same price as non-perishables and prepared food. So yes people are demanding them with their dollars but that's less of a preference for them and more they would be stupid not to if budget is of any concern. If all the fresh produce in the grocery store was $0 I bet consumers would choose it overwhelmingly compared to alternatives. So I contend there is a number where fresh produce wins but we're not even close to it. Because you have to save on dollars to make the additional work/risk worth it but right now you don't. And it's one thing to be like "well that's the market for ya" but we already heavily subsidize agriculture it's not that crazy to also subsidize produce at the point of sale both to reduce waste during harvest and to encourage healthier eating.