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A) The overall job market is tighter than it was a few years ago and MBAs are not immune. B) Over the last decade I’ve observed the MBA becoming a lot less fas

by JCM9 3y ago

A) The overall job market is tighter than it was a few years ago and MBAs are not immune. B) Over the last decade I’ve observed the MBA becoming a lot less fashionable than it once was. I get the whole “it’s a great networking experience” thing but as a value-add degree there seems to be a lot less interest in people who specialize in “management” vs folks that focus first and foremost on being an expert at something. The “professional mid-level manager” definitely seems to be less of a thing than it used to be, with that now more of a meme for poorly performing companies (eg commentary about “the MBAs rocked up and messed up this org/company/product”). The days of armies of MBA hires consistently forming the next generation of leaders in high performing companies seems to have broadly passed. Not saying don’t do an MBA but it’s not the ticket to a senior role that it once was. Particularly in tech there’s a lot less pathways in for an MBA than say a brilliant technologist that has some experience managing teams/products.

paulpauper 3y ago
A) The overall job market is tighter than it was a few years ago and MBAs are not immune. But what about all the "help wanted" signs I hear about from the media. I think it's more like they don't necessarily need a work, but are more like looking for candidates who may be offered a job.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  Would you rather work at a McDonald's mopping up puke for $14/hour, driving heavy equipment in a heat index of 120 degrees for $20/hour, or anything an MBA might be expected to do?
  - beaeglebeached 3y ago
    Where are you getting equipment operators for 20? I live in very cheap area and an unlicensed joker with a tiny Kubota backhoe charges 80 an hour. A licensed contractor, double. I rented my own to excavate my house, rental charges with full delivery and maintenance only 40/hr which leaves a good 120 for labor overhead.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      South Texas, so you also need to speak Spanish. If you paid equipment operators here $200K+/year, you'd have to hire security to control the crowd of people beating down your door to apply for a job.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
AtlasBarfed 3y ago
What is the essence of an MBA education? I know it involves accounting and finance, but how hard is it to simply pick that up in a night course? What I'm really curious about is the actual people management that is taught in MBA schools, and surviving middle management Machiavellianism. Is this explicitly taught in MBA schools? Suppressing labor costs? Anti-union? Bypassing regulatory costs? Acquiring regulatory capture? Anyway, a lot of that doesn't seem like stuff that schools would teach well.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  Not being able to look up what's involved in obtaining an MBA, but assuming you could learn it in a "night course" is classic HackerNews.
- hammock 3y ago
  You would learn that in office hours or your internships In the classroom, the emphasis typically is on business ethics and responsible leadership.
  - ehutch79 3y ago
    Evidence would suggest those arn't things MBAs take away from their degree...
    - youngtaff 3y ago
      Oh that was a big part of my MBA (not in US though)
      - ehutch79 3y ago
        That might be key. In the US, a lot of our problems come down to greed. You can be legally liable for choosing to do what’s right for employees instead of increasing shareholder value.
- achrono 3y ago
  > What is the essence of an MBA education? As the title itself suggests, it is to understand how to run a business. That might not be the outcome for most MBA students, that might not even be their intent behind pursuing an MBA etc. but it is the 'essence'. > [...] middle management Machiavellianism. Is this explicitly taught in MBA schools? Short answer: rarely. But is it explicitly mentioned in MBA literature? Yes, if you know what to look for -- as is exactly the case in its real life manifestation. Source: why, I have an MBA.
FireBeyond 3y ago
To me the "value" of an MBA is as I sit around the Principal PM, Director of Product region with 15-20 years under my belt and contemplate rounding myself out for a VP, CTO/CIO role (these are a little orthogonal, but I also have a substantial engineering and SRE background). That's balancing things out, getting a better grasp of corporate leadership knowledge (in the sense of finances, accounting, corporate structure, legal). There's a large difference between that and the "high school to college to MBA to Big 4 to management" pipeline, which is being looked at with a lot more skepticism at least, if not cynicism.
- youngtaff 3y ago
  Yeh, that’s my view too… I did an MBA in my 30’s after being a CTO of a company for a few years (parent company closed us down after 9/11). For me an MBA rounded out some of the gaps in my experience and knowledge and re-enforced the concept of being able to hold to contradictory ideas in my head and evaluate them In Europe most MBAs are people who’re mid career and already have business experience
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    I think it's also a good litmus test for the MBA program itself. Several won't even let you apply without experience, and to me that shows a focus more on business concepts and knowledge, versus, "this is a networking program".
tcgv 3y ago
> there seems to be a lot less interest in people who specialize in “management” vs folks that focus first and foremost on being an expert at something I disagree. A career in management is very different from a specialist career, and both are essential. I made the switch from an IC (individual contributor) position to tech management about five years ago and received proper training at my company. My anecdotal experience and consultations with my professional network (from startups to colleagues at FAANGs) indicate that most companies value both management and specialist career ladders (The 'Y career' [1]). [1] https://hrconsultantuk.co.uk/y-career-understand-what-it-is-and-its-possibilities-for-professionals https://hrconsultantuk.co.uk/y-career-understand-what-it-is-...
- contrast 3y ago
  I suspect the poster you’re responding to would say you are agreeing with them, not disagreeing. I took that post to be a criticism of people who seek to go into management without the expertise you will have gathered as an IC, or without the industry or domain knowledge you will have as you go transfer to the management track. They weren’t criticising management, but rather the “MBAs who rock up” without the necessary expertise to do a good job (and quite often not even much experience of actually managing).
octobus2021 3y ago
It is not about having less interest in hiring managers, it is there is less need for managers than there is need for individual contributors. Due to simple math - one manager is needed to manage unit/organization of multiple individual contributors. So there's less open positions for managers and more competition, and more perks too.

by JCM9 3y ago

paulpauper 3y ago

A) The overall job market is tighter than it was a few years ago and MBAs are not immune. But what about all the "help wanted" signs I hear about from the media. I think it's more like they don't necessarily need a work, but are more like looking for candidates who may be offered a job.

hotpotamus 3y ago
Would you rather work at a McDonald's mopping up puke for $14/hour, driving heavy equipment in a heat index of 120 degrees for $20/hour, or anything an MBA might be expected to do?
- beaeglebeached 3y ago
  Where are you getting equipment operators for 20? I live in very cheap area and an unlicensed joker with a tiny Kubota backhoe charges 80 an hour. A licensed contractor, double. I rented my own to excavate my house, rental charges with full delivery and maintenance only 40/hr which leaves a good 120 for labor overhead.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    South Texas, so you also need to speak Spanish. If you paid equipment operators here $200K+/year, you'd have to hire security to control the crowd of people beating down your door to apply for a job.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

AtlasBarfed 3y ago

What is the essence of an MBA education? I know it involves accounting and finance, but how hard is it to simply pick that up in a night course? What I'm really curious about is the actual people management that is taught in MBA schools, and surviving middle management Machiavellianism. Is this explicitly taught in MBA schools? Suppressing labor costs? Anti-union? Bypassing regulatory costs? Acquiring regulatory capture? Anyway, a lot of that doesn't seem like stuff that schools would teach well.

itsoktocry 3y ago
Not being able to look up what's involved in obtaining an MBA, but assuming you could learn it in a "night course" is classic HackerNews.
hammock 3y ago
You would learn that in office hours or your internships In the classroom, the emphasis typically is on business ethics and responsible leadership.
- ehutch79 3y ago
  Evidence would suggest those arn't things MBAs take away from their degree...
  - youngtaff 3y ago
    Oh that was a big part of my MBA (not in US though)
    - ehutch79 3y ago
      That might be key. In the US, a lot of our problems come down to greed. You can be legally liable for choosing to do what’s right for employees instead of increasing shareholder value.
achrono 3y ago
> What is the essence of an MBA education? As the title itself suggests, it is to understand how to run a business. That might not be the outcome for most MBA students, that might not even be their intent behind pursuing an MBA etc. but it is the 'essence'. > [...] middle management Machiavellianism. Is this explicitly taught in MBA schools? Short answer: rarely. But is it explicitly mentioned in MBA literature? Yes, if you know what to look for -- as is exactly the case in its real life manifestation. Source: why, I have an MBA.

FireBeyond 3y ago

To me the "value" of an MBA is as I sit around the Principal PM, Director of Product region with 15-20 years under my belt and contemplate rounding myself out for a VP, CTO/CIO role (these are a little orthogonal, but I also have a substantial engineering and SRE background). That's balancing things out, getting a better grasp of corporate leadership knowledge (in the sense of finances, accounting, corporate structure, legal). There's a large difference between that and the "high school to college to MBA to Big 4 to management" pipeline, which is being looked at with a lot more skepticism at least, if not cynicism.

youngtaff 3y ago
Yeh, that’s my view too… I did an MBA in my 30’s after being a CTO of a company for a few years (parent company closed us down after 9/11). For me an MBA rounded out some of the gaps in my experience and knowledge and re-enforced the concept of being able to hold to contradictory ideas in my head and evaluate them In Europe most MBAs are people who’re mid career and already have business experience
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  I think it's also a good litmus test for the MBA program itself. Several won't even let you apply without experience, and to me that shows a focus more on business concepts and knowledge, versus, "this is a networking program".

tcgv 3y ago

> there seems to be a lot less interest in people who specialize in “management” vs folks that focus first and foremost on being an expert at something I disagree. A career in management is very different from a specialist career, and both are essential. I made the switch from an IC (individual contributor) position to tech management about five years ago and received proper training at my company. My anecdotal experience and consultations with my professional network (from startups to colleagues at FAANGs) indicate that most companies value both management and specialist career ladders (The 'Y career' [1]). [1] https://hrconsultantuk.co.uk/y-career-understand-what-it-is-and-its-possibilities-for-professionals https://hrconsultantuk.co.uk/y-career-understand-what-it-is-...

contrast 3y ago
I suspect the poster you’re responding to would say you are agreeing with them, not disagreeing. I took that post to be a criticism of people who seek to go into management without the expertise you will have gathered as an IC, or without the industry or domain knowledge you will have as you go transfer to the management track. They weren’t criticising management, but rather the “MBAs who rock up” without the necessary expertise to do a good job (and quite often not even much experience of actually managing).

octobus2021 3y ago

It is not about having less interest in hiring managers, it is there is less need for managers than there is need for individual contributors. Due to simple math - one manager is needed to manage unit/organization of multiple individual contributors. So there's less open positions for managers and more competition, and more perks too.