9 ms·

The way the ban is enforced, yes. But no one in their right mind believes that heroin should be openly accessible on the market like candy. We've seen how that

The way the ban is enforced, yes. But no one in their right mind believes that heroin should be openly accessible on the market like candy. We've seen how that works out with tobacco.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I think that's worked fine with tobacco. Unlike illegal drugs, alcohol and tobacco consumption have been gradually dropping over time(or moved to less harmful methods than smoking). Heroin already is openly accessible. As much as one can try to argue this is an accessibility issue, it really isn't. Anyone who is motivated to can get their hands on some heroin. The only thing that's made harder to access is high quality heroin. It's only a quality control and outreach(to addicts) issue. Most people in a well-functioning society wouldn't develop a heroin addiction just like most people don't become alcoholics just because alcohol is easily available. So yes, I believe heroin should be legal, and available to adults for purchase. And you're gonna have to do better than saying I'm "out of my mind" to convince me otherwise.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  No, heroin is not "openly accessible". Massive corporations are not profiting off pushing heroin. You'd see a massive increase in heroin use if it was fully legal. And that's not a good thing jn any possible way.
  - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
    You're not making an argument, just stating a disagreement.
    - tsimionescu 3y ago
      Do you have any doubt that, say, Coca Cola Company could push heroin more effectively than someone on a street corner, if it were legal to do so? Do you think heroin is more or less commonly used than tabacco or alcohol? We've already seen from the opioid epidemic that drug companies at least are both willing and able to push massive amounts of an opioid drug on patients if it is even slightly legal to do so. Why do you think it wouldn't be much much worse if it was fully legal? Note, I am not against decriminalizing heroin and any other drug. I fully agree that the war on drugs is a massive problem. But that doesn't mean that full legalization of hard drugs, especially the most addictive of them, is the same.
      - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
        No, I have no doubt they would but I never suggested they should be allowed to. I think the sale and quality should be heavily regulated, advertising still banned, and requirements made to be allowed to purchase it. Like age, and who knows, maybe going through some basic harm reduction training. Certainly not advocating doing anything the way the US does it, in almost any respect. But the pharma thing is fundamentally a different issue. The reason people so easily become addicted to painkillers is because they're initially given for pain by someone they trust, while unbeknownst to them they've actually been given too much, for too long. In other words this is an issue of doctors abusing their authority. Why don't I think it would get worse? Because of cultural norms. Legalising heroin won't make it cool and socially acceptable to use. People don't actually derive their social values solely from what happens to be legal. Let me ask you a question. Why isn't everyone an alcoholic or a smoker? Why do they become rarer(in the west) despite those drugs being legal? (Hint: the reason is cultural).
        tsimionescu 3y ago
        I think we might actually be overall in agreement, just using different language. I believed that by legalization you meant something similar to how weed was legalized in various places - fully legal with minimal restrictions akin to alcohol or tobacco. If you're for making it fully legal but heavily regulated, somewhat akin to a prescription drug, then I more or less agree.
        ben_w 3y ago
        I think heroin is available on prescription in the UK? https://www.jrf.org.uk/prescribing-heroin-what-is-the-evidence#:~:text=Heroin%20has%20been%20prescribed%20in,the%20interest%20in%20prescribing%20heroin https://www.jrf.org.uk/prescribing-heroin-what-is-the-eviden.... My elevator-pitch-summary understanding of UK drugs laws is that almost anything can be prescribed by a doctor, but almost everything is illegal unless a doctor does so, and there's 3 levels of severity if you have or supply something without that authorisation.

The way the ban is enforced, yes. But no one in their right mind believes that heroin should be openly accessible on the market like candy. We've seen how that works out with tobacco.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

I think that's worked fine with tobacco. Unlike illegal drugs, alcohol and tobacco consumption have been gradually dropping over time(or moved to less harmful methods than smoking). Heroin already is openly accessible. As much as one can try to argue this is an accessibility issue, it really isn't. Anyone who is motivated to can get their hands on some heroin. The only thing that's made harder to access is high quality heroin. It's only a quality control and outreach(to addicts) issue. Most people in a well-functioning society wouldn't develop a heroin addiction just like most people don't become alcoholics just because alcohol is easily available. So yes, I believe heroin should be legal, and available to adults for purchase. And you're gonna have to do better than saying I'm "out of my mind" to convince me otherwise.

tsimionescu 3y ago
No, heroin is not "openly accessible". Massive corporations are not profiting off pushing heroin. You'd see a massive increase in heroin use if it was fully legal. And that's not a good thing jn any possible way.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  You're not making an argument, just stating a disagreement.
  - tsimionescu 3y ago
    Do you have any doubt that, say, Coca Cola Company could push heroin more effectively than someone on a street corner, if it were legal to do so? Do you think heroin is more or less commonly used than tabacco or alcohol? We've already seen from the opioid epidemic that drug companies at least are both willing and able to push massive amounts of an opioid drug on patients if it is even slightly legal to do so. Why do you think it wouldn't be much much worse if it was fully legal? Note, I am not against decriminalizing heroin and any other drug. I fully agree that the war on drugs is a massive problem. But that doesn't mean that full legalization of hard drugs, especially the most addictive of them, is the same.
    - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
      No, I have no doubt they would but I never suggested they should be allowed to. I think the sale and quality should be heavily regulated, advertising still banned, and requirements made to be allowed to purchase it. Like age, and who knows, maybe going through some basic harm reduction training. Certainly not advocating doing anything the way the US does it, in almost any respect. But the pharma thing is fundamentally a different issue. The reason people so easily become addicted to painkillers is because they're initially given for pain by someone they trust, while unbeknownst to them they've actually been given too much, for too long. In other words this is an issue of doctors abusing their authority. Why don't I think it would get worse? Because of cultural norms. Legalising heroin won't make it cool and socially acceptable to use. People don't actually derive their social values solely from what happens to be legal. Let me ask you a question. Why isn't everyone an alcoholic or a smoker? Why do they become rarer(in the west) despite those drugs being legal? (Hint: the reason is cultural).
      - tsimionescu 3y ago
        I think we might actually be overall in agreement, just using different language. I believed that by legalization you meant something similar to how weed was legalized in various places - fully legal with minimal restrictions akin to alcohol or tobacco. If you're for making it fully legal but heavily regulated, somewhat akin to a prescription drug, then I more or less agree.
        ben_w 3y ago
        I think heroin is available on prescription in the UK? https://www.jrf.org.uk/prescribing-heroin-what-is-the-evidence#:~:text=Heroin%20has%20been%20prescribed%20in,the%20interest%20in%20prescribing%20heroin https://www.jrf.org.uk/prescribing-heroin-what-is-the-eviden.... My elevator-pitch-summary understanding of UK drugs laws is that almost anything can be prescribed by a doctor, but almost everything is illegal unless a doctor does so, and there's 3 levels of severity if you have or supply something without that authorisation.