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I wish we could use our powerful handheld computing devices as if we owned them again. Steam should make a smart phone, fully open under the hood, decent specs

I wish we could use our powerful handheld computing devices as if we owned them again. Steam should make a smart phone, fully open under the hood, decent specs, no walled gardens except optional ones.

JohnMakin 3y ago
Side-loading apps is not the mecca you think it is. It's going to create even more walled gardens, except this time, companies like meta don't have a fear of being yanked from the app store when they engage in practices that are harmful to user privacy. Should a mega corp like apple be the gatekeepers for this kind of stuff? In an ideal world no, but at least they are the only ones doing it.
- aspenmayer 3y ago
  And if/when that happens and in the interim, end user can install a proper VPN and firewall on their iDevice instead of what we have now. https://www.michaelhorowitz.com/VPNs.on.iOS.are.scam.php https://www.michaelhorowitz.com/VPNs.on.iOS.are.scam.php
- kelnos 3y ago
  People could, y'know, just not install the Facebook app, if they're unhappy with Meta's privacy practices. Of course, given that Meta's privacy practices are already atrocious, and people still use Facebook, I guess maybe it just doesn't matter? I agree that side-loading apps is no panacea; I use Android, and while I do have the F-Droid store installed, and even side-load a small utility app or two that I've written myself but can't be bothered to make publicly available, I'm actually not sure I know anyone in person who uses anything but the Play Store. But having the option there, to me -- even if I didn't use it -- is huge. Hell, having the option to install a third-party OS on the phone (even though I don't do it, because it would involve too many compromises to my daily use) is huge. That should be the default, not this locked-down nonsense Apple forces on everyone. It's just sad to me that so many people accept it as ok and normal.
  - gretch 3y ago
    > People could, y'know, just not install the Facebook app, if they're unhappy with Meta's privacy practices. Of course, given that Meta's privacy practices are already atrocious, and people still use Facebook, I guess maybe it just doesn't matter? Just apply this same reasoning to Apple iPhones. Everyone says sideloading is a big deal, but it turns out that when the phones don't have sideloading, people still use them anyway. I guess maybe it just doesn't matter.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Alternatively, hold both companies to higher standards through regulation and start treating technology as a secular field of businesses instead of the World Cup.
      - gretch 3y ago
        Your “higher standard” is only “higher” for your preferences. Personally I’m happy with both the operation of Facebook and Apple. I do not wish a 3rd party with no track record of technical innovation, and especially not the US government, come and make some rules about what is a “higher standard”.
        smoldesu 3y ago
        > Personally I’m happy with both the operation of Facebook and Apple. You should have higher standards too, then.
        gretch 3y ago
        You are someone who is convinced that those with different preferences than you must be dumb or irrational. My standards are plenty high. They just aren’t aligned with your world views.
        smoldesu 3y ago
- tick_tock_tick 3y ago
  I mean the reason Apple took action against Facebook was because they were trying to get traction on their own Ads platform. They didn't stop tracking on iphone they just made it so they were the only ones that can do it. Aka they used their position to crush competition not to increase privacy. They absolutely could have taken the opportunity to improve privacy overall but that would have limited their own ads platform so they didn't.
fsflover 3y ago
There are already GNU/Linux phones running a FLOSS, desktop OS, without walled gardens: Librem 5 and Pinephone.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Unfortunately they don't have the market share to have the clout to do a lot of things users really want. I run Linux on my laptop as my daily-driver and sole OS; I've been mostly doing this for more than 20 years now (with some brief dalliances with macOS here and there that never stuck). But my phone runs Google's stock Pixel version of Android. While there are other examples, a single example I think suffices: Google Pay. I like contactless payments, and I like not having to fish around for a credit card (or just not having to bring a credit card, say if I'm out for a run). What are the chances of a Google/Apple-Pay-workalike app ever appearing on the Librem 5 or Pinephone? Seems pretty slim to me. I'm not saying these phones have no value; clearly they do. And the world is better off with their existence. But they are not a realistic choice for most people.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    > I like contactless payments, and I like not having to fish around for a credit card Yes, unfortunately, if you want the freedom and control, you have to pay for that with some compromises. > What are the chances of a Google/Apple-Pay-workalike app ever appearing on the Librem 5 or Pinephone? Waydroid allows to run Android apps. It works fine on my Librem 5, unless apps require verified Android environment. Unfortunately Librem 5 has no NFC at all. AFAIK Pinephone offered a case which enabled NFC functionality.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Credit cards and contactless payments alike are a far bigger form of control than phone OSes. Bank, government, and advertisers watching your purchases, building a profile, taking their cut, and banning any buyers/sellers they want. In real life, not just digital. If I were worried enough about control to use a FOSS phone, I'd for sure be paying with cash too. But I'm not. Also, cell carrier will be tracking your location and giving that info out. Not sure if that can be avoided, but maybe a prepaid plan helps anonymize it.
rstupek 3y ago
I'm wondering when that was ever true? Until the advent of the iphone, from my recollection phone devices didn't allow you to install whatever you wanted. In fact they were even more restrictive for developers than they are now
- stonogo 3y ago
  Tons of counterexamples: Windows Mobile, PalmOS, Symbian, even dumbphone operating systems like S30 allowed J2EE apps. Of these, the strictest control was exercised in the J2EE ecosystem, which could be (and often was) configured such that only programs signed by the OEM could run. But that was an extreme case, because all smartphones operated with what kids these days called "sideloading." "Sideloading" used to be called "installing" and you didn't need to do it with a specific piece of software run by the company who issued your operating system.
hot_gril 3y ago
Steam feels like a DRM / manufacturer control system more than anything else. It has to be open to launch any of your games, it sorta forces you to install updates to even launch your games (some asterisks there), it disallows downgrading them, a solid number of games are Steam-only, and it shows ads.
- tmtvl 3y ago
  Technically there are games on Steam that don't require the Steam client to be running in order for you to play them. If you google 'Steam DRM-free games' on DuckDuckGo you'll easily find a list.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Games that are purchased and downloaded on Steam but can be run without it? I didn't know this was a thing without hacks, but yeah there are some that do this out of the box.
  - joemi 3y ago
    > If you _google_ 'Steam DRM-free games' _on DuckDuckGo_ (Emphasis mine) I'm quite amused that this is how language works.

JohnMakin 3y ago

Side-loading apps is not the mecca you think it is. It's going to create even more walled gardens, except this time, companies like meta don't have a fear of being yanked from the app store when they engage in practices that are harmful to user privacy. Should a mega corp like apple be the gatekeepers for this kind of stuff? In an ideal world no, but at least they are the only ones doing it.

aspenmayer 3y ago
And if/when that happens and in the interim, end user can install a proper VPN and firewall on their iDevice instead of what we have now. https://www.michaelhorowitz.com/VPNs.on.iOS.are.scam.php https://www.michaelhorowitz.com/VPNs.on.iOS.are.scam.php
kelnos 3y ago
People could, y'know, just not install the Facebook app, if they're unhappy with Meta's privacy practices. Of course, given that Meta's privacy practices are already atrocious, and people still use Facebook, I guess maybe it just doesn't matter? I agree that side-loading apps is no panacea; I use Android, and while I do have the F-Droid store installed, and even side-load a small utility app or two that I've written myself but can't be bothered to make publicly available, I'm actually not sure I know anyone in person who uses anything but the Play Store. But having the option there, to me -- even if I didn't use it -- is huge. Hell, having the option to install a third-party OS on the phone (even though I don't do it, because it would involve too many compromises to my daily use) is huge. That should be the default, not this locked-down nonsense Apple forces on everyone. It's just sad to me that so many people accept it as ok and normal.
- gretch 3y ago
  > People could, y'know, just not install the Facebook app, if they're unhappy with Meta's privacy practices. Of course, given that Meta's privacy practices are already atrocious, and people still use Facebook, I guess maybe it just doesn't matter? Just apply this same reasoning to Apple iPhones. Everyone says sideloading is a big deal, but it turns out that when the phones don't have sideloading, people still use them anyway. I guess maybe it just doesn't matter.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Alternatively, hold both companies to higher standards through regulation and start treating technology as a secular field of businesses instead of the World Cup.
    - gretch 3y ago
      Your “higher standard” is only “higher” for your preferences. Personally I’m happy with both the operation of Facebook and Apple. I do not wish a 3rd party with no track record of technical innovation, and especially not the US government, come and make some rules about what is a “higher standard”.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        > Personally I’m happy with both the operation of Facebook and Apple. You should have higher standards too, then.
        gretch 3y ago
        You are someone who is convinced that those with different preferences than you must be dumb or irrational. My standards are plenty high. They just aren’t aligned with your world views.
        smoldesu 3y ago
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
I mean the reason Apple took action against Facebook was because they were trying to get traction on their own Ads platform. They didn't stop tracking on iphone they just made it so they were the only ones that can do it. Aka they used their position to crush competition not to increase privacy. They absolutely could have taken the opportunity to improve privacy overall but that would have limited their own ads platform so they didn't.

fsflover 3y ago

There are already GNU/Linux phones running a FLOSS, desktop OS, without walled gardens: Librem 5 and Pinephone.

kelnos 3y ago
Unfortunately they don't have the market share to have the clout to do a lot of things users really want. I run Linux on my laptop as my daily-driver and sole OS; I've been mostly doing this for more than 20 years now (with some brief dalliances with macOS here and there that never stuck). But my phone runs Google's stock Pixel version of Android. While there are other examples, a single example I think suffices: Google Pay. I like contactless payments, and I like not having to fish around for a credit card (or just not having to bring a credit card, say if I'm out for a run). What are the chances of a Google/Apple-Pay-workalike app ever appearing on the Librem 5 or Pinephone? Seems pretty slim to me. I'm not saying these phones have no value; clearly they do. And the world is better off with their existence. But they are not a realistic choice for most people.
- fsflover 3y ago
  > I like contactless payments, and I like not having to fish around for a credit card Yes, unfortunately, if you want the freedom and control, you have to pay for that with some compromises. > What are the chances of a Google/Apple-Pay-workalike app ever appearing on the Librem 5 or Pinephone? Waydroid allows to run Android apps. It works fine on my Librem 5, unless apps require verified Android environment. Unfortunately Librem 5 has no NFC at all. AFAIK Pinephone offered a case which enabled NFC functionality.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Credit cards and contactless payments alike are a far bigger form of control than phone OSes. Bank, government, and advertisers watching your purchases, building a profile, taking their cut, and banning any buyers/sellers they want. In real life, not just digital. If I were worried enough about control to use a FOSS phone, I'd for sure be paying with cash too. But I'm not. Also, cell carrier will be tracking your location and giving that info out. Not sure if that can be avoided, but maybe a prepaid plan helps anonymize it.

rstupek 3y ago

I'm wondering when that was ever true? Until the advent of the iphone, from my recollection phone devices didn't allow you to install whatever you wanted. In fact they were even more restrictive for developers than they are now

stonogo 3y ago
Tons of counterexamples: Windows Mobile, PalmOS, Symbian, even dumbphone operating systems like S30 allowed J2EE apps. Of these, the strictest control was exercised in the J2EE ecosystem, which could be (and often was) configured such that only programs signed by the OEM could run. But that was an extreme case, because all smartphones operated with what kids these days called "sideloading." "Sideloading" used to be called "installing" and you didn't need to do it with a specific piece of software run by the company who issued your operating system.

hot_gril 3y ago

Steam feels like a DRM / manufacturer control system more than anything else. It has to be open to launch any of your games, it sorta forces you to install updates to even launch your games (some asterisks there), it disallows downgrading them, a solid number of games are Steam-only, and it shows ads.

tmtvl 3y ago
Technically there are games on Steam that don't require the Steam client to be running in order for you to play them. If you google 'Steam DRM-free games' on DuckDuckGo you'll easily find a list.
- hot_gril 3y ago
  Games that are purchased and downloaded on Steam but can be run without it? I didn't know this was a thing without hacks, but yeah there are some that do this out of the box.
- joemi 3y ago
  > If you _google_ 'Steam DRM-free games' _on DuckDuckGo_ (Emphasis mine) I'm quite amused that this is how language works.