4 ms·

Name one major religion that is logical. It's not really about your personal existential questions, religions are organized social phenomena (probably biologica

Name one major religion that is logical. It's not really about your personal existential questions, religions are organized social phenomena (probably biological adaptations one could say). Maths and logic is a consistent system and it can even prove its inconsistencies. Despite popular opinion, Godel's theorem does not provide mathematical foundation to illogical truths, nor does it state that any arbitrary argument cannot be decided. It's specific statements cannot be decided. In short, Maths don't make metaphysical claims, and please don't use Godel / Quantum indeterminacy / chaos theory / complexity theory as arguments in religious discussions.

MartinCron 15y ago
please don't use Godel / Quantum indeterminacy / chaos theory / complexity theory as arguments in religious discussions Amen to that! Or, whatever, you know what I mean.
ars 15y ago
All religions have as a core belief the particulars of the creation of existence. Most require that the creation happened as a act of will by a sentience. Not all though, some hold that it was created as reflex of sort. But all claim to know how it happened (and agnosticism holds that we don't know, and atheism holds that it created itself with an additional belief that we will eventually figure out how it happened). That belief will never go away, so if that's your criteria there is no point in continuing further. But religion is more than just that, there are all sorts of other things that religions require, and that's where my argument lies. Rites, rituals, prohibited practices, required practices, what is considered good, what is bad, what is neutral. Some religions don't require anything at all - just the core belief in a creator and that's it. The question is what is the source of these things - are they dictated by fiat, and believers just believe it without thinking about it? Or does every single ritual and belief require rigorous explanation and analysis before being accepted as necessary. And you got my argument about Gödel backward. I did not argue religion from Gödel, rather that everything also requires some belief without proof. (The interesting arguments about what if that belief was wrong are what differentiates science from religion.) But the need for the belief doesn't go away.
- btilly 15y ago
  All religions have as a core belief the particulars of the creation of existence. Buddhism is a counter-example. There are many strands of Buddhism, but in general they do not take a position on the creation of the universe, the existence of deities, or many other things that most Westerners would think are central to a religion. If all that you're really familiar with are variants on one religion (Judaism, Christianity and Islam share holy books), it is easy to believe that all religions look the same with different texts. But in fact there is a much wider variety of religions in the world than that.
  - true_religion 15y ago
    Um.... its not just Judiasm. It's also every animist branch that makes up the traditional religions of Africa. It's also the religions of the Mayans, Aztecs, Norse, and Greco-Romans. It's also the Shintoist religion of Japan and the Hinduists of the Indian Subcontinent. If Buddhism lacks something that all other religions independently developed then is Buddhism really a religion?
    - btilly 15y ago
      That is a very sweeping claim. I'm certainly not qualified to talk about every one of those religions. I doubt that you are either. Also the existence of a creation myth does not mean that it is particularly important to that religion. For instance the Catholic faith has a detailed creation myth in the Bible. However the official statements from leaders of that faith (see, for instance, Pope John Paul's October 22, 1996 address where he says that "evolution is more than a hypothesis") accepts the truth of the scientific consensus on how the world came to be, even though it is in direct and obvious conflict with their creation myth. Yes, I know all of the logical arguments you can make for the creation myths being central to the faith. They have been made before, including by a variety of Catholics. However the current belief of many millions of Catholics, and the official statements of the church, demonstrate that their creation myth is NOT, in fact, central to the religion.
      - 15y ago

MartinCron 15y ago

please don't use Godel / Quantum indeterminacy / chaos theory / complexity theory as arguments in religious discussions Amen to that! Or, whatever, you know what I mean.

ars 15y ago

All religions have as a core belief the particulars of the creation of existence. Most require that the creation happened as a act of will by a sentience. Not all though, some hold that it was created as reflex of sort. But all claim to know how it happened (and agnosticism holds that we don't know, and atheism holds that it created itself with an additional belief that we will eventually figure out how it happened). That belief will never go away, so if that's your criteria there is no point in continuing further. But religion is more than just that, there are all sorts of other things that religions require, and that's where my argument lies. Rites, rituals, prohibited practices, required practices, what is considered good, what is bad, what is neutral. Some religions don't require anything at all - just the core belief in a creator and that's it. The question is what is the source of these things - are they dictated by fiat, and believers just believe it without thinking about it? Or does every single ritual and belief require rigorous explanation and analysis before being accepted as necessary. And you got my argument about Gödel backward. I did not argue religion from Gödel, rather that everything also requires some belief without proof. (The interesting arguments about what if that belief was wrong are what differentiates science from religion.) But the need for the belief doesn't go away.

btilly 15y ago
All religions have as a core belief the particulars of the creation of existence. Buddhism is a counter-example. There are many strands of Buddhism, but in general they do not take a position on the creation of the universe, the existence of deities, or many other things that most Westerners would think are central to a religion. If all that you're really familiar with are variants on one religion (Judaism, Christianity and Islam share holy books), it is easy to believe that all religions look the same with different texts. But in fact there is a much wider variety of religions in the world than that.
- true_religion 15y ago
  Um.... its not just Judiasm. It's also every animist branch that makes up the traditional religions of Africa. It's also the religions of the Mayans, Aztecs, Norse, and Greco-Romans. It's also the Shintoist religion of Japan and the Hinduists of the Indian Subcontinent. If Buddhism lacks something that all other religions independently developed then is Buddhism really a religion?
  - btilly 15y ago
    That is a very sweeping claim. I'm certainly not qualified to talk about every one of those religions. I doubt that you are either. Also the existence of a creation myth does not mean that it is particularly important to that religion. For instance the Catholic faith has a detailed creation myth in the Bible. However the official statements from leaders of that faith (see, for instance, Pope John Paul's October 22, 1996 address where he says that "evolution is more than a hypothesis") accepts the truth of the scientific consensus on how the world came to be, even though it is in direct and obvious conflict with their creation myth. Yes, I know all of the logical arguments you can make for the creation myths being central to the faith. They have been made before, including by a variety of Catholics. However the current belief of many millions of Catholics, and the official statements of the church, demonstrate that their creation myth is NOT, in fact, central to the religion.
    - 15y ago