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You are missing the point. First of all, cutting off water to enemy forces is not a war crime https://www.quora.com/Is-cutting-off-water-to-an-enemy-city-consi

You are missing the point. First of all, cutting off water to enemy forces is not a war crime https://www.quora.com/Is-cutting-off-water-to-an-enemy-city-considered-a-war-crime#:~:text=No%20cutting%20off%20all%20supplies,of%20opposing%20forces%20in%20combat https://www.quora.com/Is-cutting-off-water-to-an-enemy-city-.... Secondly, Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organization that Israel thought was moderating over time and one that could be managed. That assessment was proven spectacularly wrong And now there is an actual war happening as a result, in which civilians are dying, which is terrible But it’s completely absurd to place 100% of responsibility for this on Israel. Hamas is an actor in this war, not a passive observer Did you know, for example, that when Hamas and Islamic Jihad fire rockets at Israel, a significant percentage misfires and falls right on top of civilians, right in Gaza, injuring and killing civilians? Hamas embeds itself among civilian population These are all choices, choices about starting a war and a manner in which it’s conducted It’s absurd to discuss all this as if Israel is the only party with agency here. Israel has no choice but to try and wipe out Hamas because Hamas has explicitly vowed to repeat October 7th again. That leaves Israel with no real options. But Hamas doesn’t have to embed itself in civilian population to fight Israel, that’s a choice they made knowing it would lead to high civilian casualties.

tptacek 3y ago
Cutting water to Hamas is not a war crime. Cutting water to civilians is. See the ICRC page on the Laws of War with respect to water.
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  technically, this is not accurate https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/96544/what-services-is-it-a-war-crime-to-cut-off-or-eliminate-access-to https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/96544/what-services-... You are not supposed to destroy existing water resources of the population of the entity you are at war with, but you are under no obligation to provide them with water out of your own resources. Regardless, this whole convo is a red herring because Israel turned water back on
  - tptacek 3y ago
    I agree that it's mostly immaterial given that Israel was forced to turn the water back on. I do not agree that the supposed arms-length relationship between Israel and Gaza meant Israel wasn't obligated to supply water. For all practical purposes, Israel occupies Gaza; it is required to keep Gazan civilians supplied. If Israel wanted Gaza to be self-sufficient, it could allow them to build an airport, to receive ships on its shorefront, and to manage its own border with Egypt. It will not do those things, for a variety of practical reasons, and so it must accept its responsibility toward Gazan civilians.
    - vasilipupkin 3y ago
      "For all practical purposes, Israel occupies Gaza; it is required to keep Gazan civilians supplied, If Israel wanted Gaza to be self-sufficient, it could allow them to build an airport, to receive ships on its shorefront, and to manage its own border with Egypt" This is besides the point. Israel did not stop Hamas, which is the governing authority in Gaza, from investing in water infrastructure. Hamas chose to invest in underground tunnels instead. That is tragic, but it's not the responsibility of Israel. Israel did not control what happened inside Gaza and blockade did not prevent Hamas from importing cement and other materials for tunnel building, this is because civilian imports were allowed, but Hamas used imports earmarked for civilian use to build tunnels and rockets. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-tunnels.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-t...
      - tptacek 3y ago
        We're veering towards a debate about competing values, and I'm deeply skeptical of the value of those kinds of conversations on HN, given how polarizing this topic is and how conditioned we are to pattern match to the worst possible interpretations of competing arguments. I'm doing my best to stay dry and neutral about the overall conflict, and to rebut only claims that are in the ballpark of factual. Regarding the "governing" status of Hamas, I would observe that the overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to have ever voted, and that Hamas seized and maintains power coercively, so we should be careful attributing ideas like rightful governing status to Hamas. Among the organizations that care less about the lives of Palestinians than Israel, one must clearly number Hamas.
johnnyworker 3y ago
Cutting off water for 2.2m civilians "but only meaning" the militants is not a thing. > It’s absurd to discuss all this as if Israel is the only party with agency here. And each party is responsible for their own actions. It's not like some kind of car with two steering wheels. Each person has responsibility for what they do. > Israel has no choice but to try and wipe out Hamas Oh, so Israel has no agency. No choice but to turn off water, just lay waste to infrastructure to make Gaza unlivable, and of course no choice to sing about how there are "no civilians in Gaza", as shown during the hearing of the ICJ trial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s Which is just one of so many clips the IDF soldiers are proudly making. They all talk about colonization very openly, and the dehumanizing rhetoric is just astonishing. https://www.nad.ps/en/media-room/latest-israeli-incitement-reports https://www.nad.ps/en/media-room/latest-israeli-incitement-r... > But Hamas doesn’t have to embed itself in civilian population to fight Israel, that’s a choice they made knowing it would lead to high civilian casualties. Many, many Israeli politicians have vowed to ethnically cleans if not outright murder Palestinians, for their Greater Israel thing. While they're doing it, no less. Right now, it's hundreds of thousands people set to starve, and that is justified with mere "aims" of Hamas. Nobody had to do or justify that, either. edit: this just in: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/over-one-hundred-days-war-israel-destroying-gazas-food-system-and https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/over-one-hun... > “It is unprecedented to make an entire civilian population go hungry this completely and quickly. Israel is destroying Gaza’s food system and using food as a weapon against the Palestinian people.” > Israel is destroying and blocking access to farmland and the sea. Recent reports allege that since Israeli military's ground offensive started on 27 October, approximately 22% of agricultural land, including orchards, greenhouses, and farmland in northern Gaza, has been razed by Israeli forces. Israel has reportedly destroyed approximately 70% of Gaza’s fishing fleet. [..] > Israel has also destroyed more than 60% of Palestinian homes in Gaza, directly affecting the ability to cook any food, and causing domicide through the mass destruction of dwellings, making the territory uninhabitable. The U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that nearly 85% of Gaza's population — representing 1.9 million people — is internally displaced, including many who have been displaced multiple times, as families are forced to move repeatedly in search of safety. > “We have raised the alarm of the risk of genocide several times reminding all governments they have a duty to prevent genocide. Not only is Israel killing and causing irreparable harm against Palestinian civilians with its indiscriminate bombardments, it is also knowingly and intentionally imposing a high rate of disease, prolonged malnutrition, dehydration, and starvation by destroying civilian infrastructure,” said the experts. “Aid needs to be delivered to Gazans immediately and without any hindrance to prevent starvation.” > “Our alarm for the unfolding genocide does not only refer to the ongoing bombardment of Gaza but also concerns the slow suffering and death caused by Israel’s long-standing occupation, blockade and current civic destruction, since genocide advances through an ongoing process and is not a singular event.”

tptacek 3y ago

Cutting water to Hamas is not a war crime. Cutting water to civilians is. See the ICRC page on the Laws of War with respect to water.

vasilipupkin 3y ago
technically, this is not accurate https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/96544/what-services-is-it-a-war-crime-to-cut-off-or-eliminate-access-to https://law.stackexchange.com/questions/96544/what-services-... You are not supposed to destroy existing water resources of the population of the entity you are at war with, but you are under no obligation to provide them with water out of your own resources. Regardless, this whole convo is a red herring because Israel turned water back on
- tptacek 3y ago
  I agree that it's mostly immaterial given that Israel was forced to turn the water back on. I do not agree that the supposed arms-length relationship between Israel and Gaza meant Israel wasn't obligated to supply water. For all practical purposes, Israel occupies Gaza; it is required to keep Gazan civilians supplied. If Israel wanted Gaza to be self-sufficient, it could allow them to build an airport, to receive ships on its shorefront, and to manage its own border with Egypt. It will not do those things, for a variety of practical reasons, and so it must accept its responsibility toward Gazan civilians.
  - vasilipupkin 3y ago
    "For all practical purposes, Israel occupies Gaza; it is required to keep Gazan civilians supplied, If Israel wanted Gaza to be self-sufficient, it could allow them to build an airport, to receive ships on its shorefront, and to manage its own border with Egypt" This is besides the point. Israel did not stop Hamas, which is the governing authority in Gaza, from investing in water infrastructure. Hamas chose to invest in underground tunnels instead. That is tragic, but it's not the responsibility of Israel. Israel did not control what happened inside Gaza and blockade did not prevent Hamas from importing cement and other materials for tunnel building, this is because civilian imports were allowed, but Hamas used imports earmarked for civilian use to build tunnels and rockets. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-tunnels.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/16/us/politics/israel-gaza-t...
    - tptacek 3y ago
      We're veering towards a debate about competing values, and I'm deeply skeptical of the value of those kinds of conversations on HN, given how polarizing this topic is and how conditioned we are to pattern match to the worst possible interpretations of competing arguments. I'm doing my best to stay dry and neutral about the overall conflict, and to rebut only claims that are in the ballpark of factual. Regarding the "governing" status of Hamas, I would observe that the overwhelming majority of Gazans are too young to have ever voted, and that Hamas seized and maintains power coercively, so we should be careful attributing ideas like rightful governing status to Hamas. Among the organizations that care less about the lives of Palestinians than Israel, one must clearly number Hamas.

johnnyworker 3y ago

Cutting off water for 2.2m civilians "but only meaning" the militants is not a thing. > It’s absurd to discuss all this as if Israel is the only party with agency here. And each party is responsible for their own actions. It's not like some kind of car with two steering wheels. Each person has responsibility for what they do. > Israel has no choice but to try and wipe out Hamas Oh, so Israel has no agency. No choice but to turn off water, just lay waste to infrastructure to make Gaza unlivable, and of course no choice to sing about how there are "no civilians in Gaza", as shown during the hearing of the ICJ trial. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G15NyemgYDM&t=4548s Which is just one of so many clips the IDF soldiers are proudly making. They all talk about colonization very openly, and the dehumanizing rhetoric is just astonishing. https://www.nad.ps/en/media-room/latest-israeli-incitement-reports https://www.nad.ps/en/media-room/latest-israeli-incitement-r... > But Hamas doesn’t have to embed itself in civilian population to fight Israel, that’s a choice they made knowing it would lead to high civilian casualties. Many, many Israeli politicians have vowed to ethnically cleans if not outright murder Palestinians, for their Greater Israel thing. While they're doing it, no less. Right now, it's hundreds of thousands people set to starve, and that is justified with mere "aims" of Hamas. Nobody had to do or justify that, either. edit: this just in: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/over-one-hundred-days-war-israel-destroying-gazas-food-system-and https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/01/over-one-hun... > “It is unprecedented to make an entire civilian population go hungry this completely and quickly. Israel is destroying Gaza’s food system and using food as a weapon against the Palestinian people.” > Israel is destroying and blocking access to farmland and the sea. Recent reports allege that since Israeli military's ground offensive started on 27 October, approximately 22% of agricultural land, including orchards, greenhouses, and farmland in northern Gaza, has been razed by Israeli forces. Israel has reportedly destroyed approximately 70% of Gaza’s fishing fleet. [..] > Israel has also destroyed more than 60% of Palestinian homes in Gaza, directly affecting the ability to cook any food, and causing domicide through the mass destruction of dwellings, making the territory uninhabitable. The U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that nearly 85% of Gaza's population — representing 1.9 million people — is internally displaced, including many who have been displaced multiple times, as families are forced to move repeatedly in search of safety. > “We have raised the alarm of the risk of genocide several times reminding all governments they have a duty to prevent genocide. Not only is Israel killing and causing irreparable harm against Palestinian civilians with its indiscriminate bombardments, it is also knowingly and intentionally imposing a high rate of disease, prolonged malnutrition, dehydration, and starvation by destroying civilian infrastructure,” said the experts. “Aid needs to be delivered to Gazans immediately and without any hindrance to prevent starvation.” > “Our alarm for the unfolding genocide does not only refer to the ongoing bombardment of Gaza but also concerns the slow suffering and death caused by Israel’s long-standing occupation, blockade and current civic destruction, since genocide advances through an ongoing process and is not a singular event.”