8 ms·

I've had a similar idea, except in addition to toasters, it's midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers... What I've found is that regulatio

I've had a similar idea, except in addition to toasters, it's midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers... What I've found is that regulations make it impossible to sell simple machines, labor costs make it impossible to compete on price, lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And that's if you actually succeed in designing and manufacturing a good product. Someone could do it, I think. But I'm deterred by all the stuff I just wrote, and the people who succeed in businesses that seriously challenge the status quo are the ones aren't deterred by that stuff. And for every one guy who does succeed in pressuring the status quo, a hundred guys flame out... but again, guys who succeed aren't deterred by that either!

dylan604 3y ago
>lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, This would be my biggest concern. The potential field full of landmines that is the patent process would give me pause. Not spending the money to properly research because of bootstrapping the process could ultimately be more expensive if some other company comes after you for patent infringement. Whatever your idea is, I would definitely do some investigating before investing too much time and effort getting too far down the road to ultimately hit a patent caused dead end.
- voakbasda 3y ago
  The trick is to tie it up in court for years, while you milk the marketplace. If you lose, pivot. That seems to be a standard playbook.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I doubt a bootstrapped company has the finances to afford lawyers to tie it up for years. That's a lawyer's wet dream of a case being extended for years. The billing on a case like that alone could make someone a partner. Just because one side's legal playbook says delay, the other side can equally try to speed things along. Underestimate opposing counsel at your own expense, especially when they are funded with deeper pockets than yours.
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    Usually you’ll be sued for your profits and ordered by the court to stop selling during legal proceedings. And if you don’t, triple damages.
    - amne 3y ago
      that should be treble ... ba dum tsss
eru 3y ago
> [...] and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And I've never really had much of a problem with cheap toasters being unreliable in the first place. But I guess there are people who do?
- Semaphor 3y ago
  My main issue is usually that it’s so hard to tell if something is cheap but costs a lot, or if it costs a lot because it’s not cheap. Probably also partially because of price anchoring, where products seem expensive, because many very cheap ones cost even less.
  - psc 3y ago
    Very true, unfortunately this means that for many modern products it only makes sense to buy the cheapest because then at least you know exactly what you're getting (low quality), even though it's not really what you want. Yet again an instance of Market for Lemons (or maybe Gresham's law). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
    - Semaphor 3y ago
      It depends. For example for Kitchenware (not electronics), I’m very happy with German company Rösle. Usually the most expensive, but always high quality.
    - eru 3y ago
      Reputation is a mechanism to escape the 'market for lemons'. Eg I know that Miele sells good stuff, and they are defending that reputation by continuing to produce good stuff, because it allows them to charge more. Gresham's law only applies when someone forces you to accept both moneys at par. Historically, people would require discounts for the bad coins, when they could. That's also why coins meant for an international audience where consistently of high quality, even when the domestic coins of the same issuer where being debased. (The Spanish dollar was a very good example of this. That's what the Americans used to use.) And that's exactly because while you can force your own subjects to accept your coins, you have to convince the foreigners. Reputation is key. No 'bad money drives out good money' here. Just the opposite.
Dig1t 3y ago
>washing machines Among your examples I think this one is interesting. Speed Queen is regarded as among the best washing machines + dryers and they are made in the US. They are extremely well built, they feel really sturdy to use and also are known for being extremely reliable. I guess what I'm imagining is the Speed Queen of toasters..
- sumoboy 3y ago
  Just don't use any plastic parts, over-engineer the whole thing internally, no wifi, just a dial for temp and lever to engage. All these fancy toasters still can't toast bread.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - herbst 3y ago
    If you do WiFi, do it right. Nobody wants to install a toaster app but many Devs would enjoy a little API for their toasters
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      I would imagine the percent of people who are looking to buy an expensive toaster is small, the percentage of those customers who know how to code is even smaller, and the percentage of those programmer customers who have time to and are also interested in programming their toaster is vanishingly small.
      - herbst 3y ago
        You might be right but I highly believe that it would increase in popularity once you have more local only devices in this space. I have plenty smart devices with stupid apps, but I would pay premium for a quality product with a simple API and no third party servers anytime. Personally I base many buying decisions around 'hackability' Edit:// actually I think this is a coming market as Google only recently started to support smart devices without third party servers for their home app so before that local only ment no Google home most of the time.
vidarh 3y ago
I think you need to aim for a luxury-ish niche, or at least a occupy a space where people feel like they're buying a piece of luxury, that's aspirational, where people know they're paying over the odds and that's part of the feel good factor of buying it. A toaster might well be a good space for that - cheap enough that it can be expensive in relative terms without being out of reach. But figuring out the marketing of that feels almost as hard as the product. I suspect a lot of exaggerated appeal to "why aren't things as good/simple/reliable as they used to be?" that might not be all about toasters, but where even an expensive toaster can be cheap enough to become a symbolic buy for people.
- wnc3141 3y ago
  I have a theory that anything that takes permanent, visible-realestate in the household has someone of a niche for people wanting tastefully designed things. In essence, things that do not appear "disposable" as so many kitchen appliances do. People pay extra for designer hot water pots. However purely aesthetic upgrade products will need serious work to maintain differentiation. Dyson is a more glaring example (fans, vacuums, hair dryers), albeit with expensively achieved differentiation on engineering and manufacturing quality.
  - 43920 3y ago
    There are already companies that make nice-looking, higher-end kitchen appliances though - Breville comes to mind, there are probably others. Speaking from personal experience, I have a toaster oven from them that’s lasted close to ten years with zero problems; I’d have a hard time being convinced to pay more for a “made in USA” one unless there was something truly exceptional about it.
    - xwolfi 3y ago
      Especially when you can sell for more something made in France, Italy, Japan or Germany. I think the "made in" chauvinism is a hard sell if it's the USA, especially to US customer: doesn't feel exotic and isn't cheap, so what's it there for except some cheap cash grab ? Plus, you know, there are some nice Chinese stuff now and they have an economy of scale that the US simply can't match.
throwaway2037 3y ago
> midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers... "simple machines"?
- Chaosvex 3y ago
  To be fair, washing machines are extremely simple. The trucks, a little less so.
  - addandsubtract 3y ago
    A washing machine spins at up to 14-16 hundred RPM, while contain weight that shifts and changes based on the water added. I wouldn't necessarily define that as "simple", either.
    - Chaosvex 3y ago
      Yes, a couple of counterweights take care of that. Tear a washing machine down and you'll discover that there's not that much inside.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- quacked 3y ago
  A 2004 Toyota Tacoma vs a 2024 Toyota Tacoma is a simple machine.
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Does the 2004 Toyota Tacoma have fuel injection or ABS (Anti-lock braking system)? If yes, neither are simple. And, can you provide some specific examples that demonstrate 2024 model is substantially more complex than 2004 model?
    - quacked 3y ago
      You're being deliberately obtuse. The feature list in the 2004 Tacoma is significantly shorter. Every mechanic who's been in the business for long enough says that older trucks were easier to work on. If I climb in a modern car that I remote started from my cell phone, automatically adjusted the seat to my preferred profile, and booted up an onboard computer to allow me to pick between media playback and navigation, and I say "I miss when this model of car was simpler back in the day", are you seriously going to try and make the claim that there's been no increase in complexity?
bigfudge 3y ago
Any gals?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
VoodooJuJu 3y ago
I think this is why entrepreneurship immediately has people thinking of tech startups over anything else, because it's one of the few remaining forms of entrepreneurship in the purest, rawest sense: a single scrappy individual creating outsized value with limited resources. A guy, his laptop, and an internet connection, with almost no red tape in his way. Regulatory capture & gratuitous litigation has made true entrepreneurship impossible in many domains. It's state-endorsed oligopoly of heirs, heiresses, and corporations.

dylan604 3y ago

>lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, This would be my biggest concern. The potential field full of landmines that is the patent process would give me pause. Not spending the money to properly research because of bootstrapping the process could ultimately be more expensive if some other company comes after you for patent infringement. Whatever your idea is, I would definitely do some investigating before investing too much time and effort getting too far down the road to ultimately hit a patent caused dead end.

voakbasda 3y ago
The trick is to tie it up in court for years, while you milk the marketplace. If you lose, pivot. That seems to be a standard playbook.
- dylan604 3y ago
  I doubt a bootstrapped company has the finances to afford lawyers to tie it up for years. That's a lawyer's wet dream of a case being extended for years. The billing on a case like that alone could make someone a partner. Just because one side's legal playbook says delay, the other side can equally try to speed things along. Underestimate opposing counsel at your own expense, especially when they are funded with deeper pockets than yours.
- janalsncm 3y ago
  Usually you’ll be sued for your profits and ordered by the court to stop selling during legal proceedings. And if you don’t, triple damages.
  - amne 3y ago
    that should be treble ... ba dum tsss

eru 3y ago

> [...] and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And I've never really had much of a problem with cheap toasters being unreliable in the first place. But I guess there are people who do?

Semaphor 3y ago
My main issue is usually that it’s so hard to tell if something is cheap but costs a lot, or if it costs a lot because it’s not cheap. Probably also partially because of price anchoring, where products seem expensive, because many very cheap ones cost even less.
- psc 3y ago
  Very true, unfortunately this means that for many modern products it only makes sense to buy the cheapest because then at least you know exactly what you're getting (low quality), even though it's not really what you want. Yet again an instance of Market for Lemons (or maybe Gresham's law). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law
  - Semaphor 3y ago
    It depends. For example for Kitchenware (not electronics), I’m very happy with German company Rösle. Usually the most expensive, but always high quality.
  - eru 3y ago
    Reputation is a mechanism to escape the 'market for lemons'. Eg I know that Miele sells good stuff, and they are defending that reputation by continuing to produce good stuff, because it allows them to charge more. Gresham's law only applies when someone forces you to accept both moneys at par. Historically, people would require discounts for the bad coins, when they could. That's also why coins meant for an international audience where consistently of high quality, even when the domestic coins of the same issuer where being debased. (The Spanish dollar was a very good example of this. That's what the Americans used to use.) And that's exactly because while you can force your own subjects to accept your coins, you have to convince the foreigners. Reputation is key. No 'bad money drives out good money' here. Just the opposite.

Dig1t 3y ago

>washing machines Among your examples I think this one is interesting. Speed Queen is regarded as among the best washing machines + dryers and they are made in the US. They are extremely well built, they feel really sturdy to use and also are known for being extremely reliable. I guess what I'm imagining is the Speed Queen of toasters..

sumoboy 3y ago
Just don't use any plastic parts, over-engineer the whole thing internally, no wifi, just a dial for temp and lever to engage. All these fancy toasters still can't toast bread.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- herbst 3y ago
  If you do WiFi, do it right. Nobody wants to install a toaster app but many Devs would enjoy a little API for their toasters
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    I would imagine the percent of people who are looking to buy an expensive toaster is small, the percentage of those customers who know how to code is even smaller, and the percentage of those programmer customers who have time to and are also interested in programming their toaster is vanishingly small.
    - herbst 3y ago
      You might be right but I highly believe that it would increase in popularity once you have more local only devices in this space. I have plenty smart devices with stupid apps, but I would pay premium for a quality product with a simple API and no third party servers anytime. Personally I base many buying decisions around 'hackability' Edit:// actually I think this is a coming market as Google only recently started to support smart devices without third party servers for their home app so before that local only ment no Google home most of the time.

vidarh 3y ago

I think you need to aim for a luxury-ish niche, or at least a occupy a space where people feel like they're buying a piece of luxury, that's aspirational, where people know they're paying over the odds and that's part of the feel good factor of buying it. A toaster might well be a good space for that - cheap enough that it can be expensive in relative terms without being out of reach. But figuring out the marketing of that feels almost as hard as the product. I suspect a lot of exaggerated appeal to "why aren't things as good/simple/reliable as they used to be?" that might not be all about toasters, but where even an expensive toaster can be cheap enough to become a symbolic buy for people.

wnc3141 3y ago
I have a theory that anything that takes permanent, visible-realestate in the household has someone of a niche for people wanting tastefully designed things. In essence, things that do not appear "disposable" as so many kitchen appliances do. People pay extra for designer hot water pots. However purely aesthetic upgrade products will need serious work to maintain differentiation. Dyson is a more glaring example (fans, vacuums, hair dryers), albeit with expensively achieved differentiation on engineering and manufacturing quality.
- 43920 3y ago
  There are already companies that make nice-looking, higher-end kitchen appliances though - Breville comes to mind, there are probably others. Speaking from personal experience, I have a toaster oven from them that’s lasted close to ten years with zero problems; I’d have a hard time being convinced to pay more for a “made in USA” one unless there was something truly exceptional about it.
  - xwolfi 3y ago
    Especially when you can sell for more something made in France, Italy, Japan or Germany. I think the "made in" chauvinism is a hard sell if it's the USA, especially to US customer: doesn't feel exotic and isn't cheap, so what's it there for except some cheap cash grab ? Plus, you know, there are some nice Chinese stuff now and they have an economy of scale that the US simply can't match.

throwaway2037 3y ago

> midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers... "simple machines"?

Chaosvex 3y ago
To be fair, washing machines are extremely simple. The trucks, a little less so.
- addandsubtract 3y ago
  A washing machine spins at up to 14-16 hundred RPM, while contain weight that shifts and changes based on the water added. I wouldn't necessarily define that as "simple", either.
  - Chaosvex 3y ago
    Yes, a couple of counterweights take care of that. Tear a washing machine down and you'll discover that there's not that much inside.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
quacked 3y ago
A 2004 Toyota Tacoma vs a 2024 Toyota Tacoma is a simple machine.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Does the 2004 Toyota Tacoma have fuel injection or ABS (Anti-lock braking system)? If yes, neither are simple. And, can you provide some specific examples that demonstrate 2024 model is substantially more complex than 2004 model?
  - quacked 3y ago
    You're being deliberately obtuse. The feature list in the 2004 Tacoma is significantly shorter. Every mechanic who's been in the business for long enough says that older trucks were easier to work on. If I climb in a modern car that I remote started from my cell phone, automatically adjusted the seat to my preferred profile, and booted up an onboard computer to allow me to pick between media playback and navigation, and I say "I miss when this model of car was simpler back in the day", are you seriously going to try and make the claim that there's been no increase in complexity?

bigfudge 3y ago

Any gals?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

VoodooJuJu 3y ago

I think this is why entrepreneurship immediately has people thinking of tech startups over anything else, because it's one of the few remaining forms of entrepreneurship in the purest, rawest sense: a single scrappy individual creating outsized value with limited resources. A guy, his laptop, and an internet connection, with almost no red tape in his way. Regulatory capture & gratuitous litigation has made true entrepreneurship impossible in many domains. It's state-endorsed oligopoly of heirs, heiresses, and corporations.