9 ms·

Americans are fake and the Dutch are rude (2022)

57 points by Nevin1901 3y ago

Nevin1901 3y ago
As someone who recently moved from The Netherlands to USA, I found this article to be really great at explaining the reason why many Europeans find Americans to be fake. I myself had experienced all of the social experiences the author talked about, and found myself confused as to what a "friend" was in The USA. I also find it very interesting how the author described emotions as cultured - not just something which was the same to everyone. I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences with different cultures.
- floxy 3y ago
  Cultural differences aren't limited to international interactions either. Here's an interesting thing about exclamation points. Apparently there are (at least) two cultures of exclamation point usage in English. Apparently one culture uses them frequently as a marker of expressing general excitedness. The other culture sees them akin to yelling, which is appropriate only a small fraction of the time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38942179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38942179
  - bombcar 3y ago
    You forgot the exclamationistas, related to the commakazis, who just pour them!!! everywhere!!! whether!!! it makes sense!! or not!!!!
  - ks1723 3y ago
    Interestingly I became aware of a similar cultural difference regarding punctuation: I frequently use three dots ‚…‘ in more informal emails at the end of a sentence to indicate that I am not sure about something yet or still wondering about it. Like „I guess we could discuss this tomorrow…“ or „Yeah, I might be able to do this…“ Some month ago an Italian PhD student of mine (I’m from Germany) asked me if I was upset or mad at him. I had no idea why he was asking and was completely taken aback by this suggestion. But turns out, in Italy (at least the northern part of it), the three dots typically indicate that you are upset or at least impatient with the receiver. I still wonder how many of my Italian collaborators I have sent strange impatient emails in the past…
    - __jonas 3y ago
      Hate to break it to you, but it has the same subtext here in Germany
      - ks1723 3y ago
        Hmm, interesting. I really wonder how I could miss this all my life. (Would have made them here as well, but not anymore) Edit: spelling
        __jonas 3y ago
        To be fair, maybe I was a bit quick with this claim, I think it works across languages and is more of a generational thing, strange Reddit link (sorry) but I feel like this explains it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fs1rtwqhly8s71.jpg https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fs... With the ellipsis I do feel like the tone is very context dependent.
        ks1723 3y ago
        Ha, it’s just that I am old ;-) Thanks for the link!
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      I think the ellipses have that connotation in a lot of places and kind of like with all-caps and exclamation marks, it doesn't seem as strongly connected to culture. Some of my Indian friends use it the same way as you do, which often throws off some of my American friends, who interpret it as impatience, and vice versa.
      - Lio 3y ago
        A nice Indian lady I used to work with was horrified when I pointed out that her use of the "eye rolling" emoji is seen as rude and dismissive by lots of people. It's always worth being aware of these differences if you can be and also giving people the benefit of the doubt too.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU COULD MEAN BY THAT.
  - rufus_foreman 3y ago
    This exactly!
- xhevahir 3y ago
  This article about Russian's habit of yelling is interesting: https://classical-russian-literature.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-russian-game-of-yell.html?m=1 https://classical-russian-literature.blogspot.com/2020/07/th... I haven't been to Russia but some of it reminds me of encounters I've had in Greece.
  - negus 3y ago
    As a Russian living among Greeks I can not say that I experienced any unusual rudeness. But yes, permanent smiling may be considered to be deceptive and insincere by some Russians. But anyway: people tend to express themself in many different ways. It is great to be tolerant to others, while trying to be polite and culture-aware yourself.
    - xhevahir 3y ago
      The interactions I had--some of them, I should add--in Greece were combative from an American perspective and not a Russian one. If the scenes described in the link are typical of Russian life, then the Greeks I encountered indeed probably would not strike a Russian as rude.
- technothrasher 3y ago
  Here's a cultural question I've been wondering since I visited Amsterdam as an American- I was walking along an up hill street in the evening, and I saw a young lady talking to her friends and smoking, with a baby in a stroller. The stroller started to roll down the hill slightly and she didn't seem to notice. It then picked up a little speed, so I moved to intercept it, and rolled it back up to her. When I delivered her child back to her she just looked at me with a slightly blank look, then gave a very quick barking laugh, and turned back to her friends. We didn't exchange any words. I moved on and went about my business, but to this day I have absolutely zero idea what her reaction meant <shrug>.
  - holoduke 3y ago
    A bit ashamed probably, but definitely not the reaction you would expect from a Dutch person who almost lost her pram. A normal reaction would include a 'thank you' and maybe a joke to justify the act.
  - mpol 3y ago
    We live in a bizarro world. Not sure if that was what she meant, I wasnt there. But if I responded that way, this would be the meaning.
  - dr_dshiv 3y ago
    Hill? In Amsterdam? Suspicious detail!
    - DonHopkins 3y ago
      Amsterdam is a city of many mountains: the bridges over the canals.
  - yread 3y ago
    > Amsterdam > up hill street ? Do you mean a highway ramp or a bridge?
    - alejo 3y ago
- deleted 3y ago
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- christkv 3y ago
  There is a huge different between a blue collar New Yorker and a Palo Alto techie in culture though. I’ll take the nyc rudeness over the fake politeness in California. As a European I fund New Yorkers much easier to connect and befriend people than people from both the pacific coast.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    Same. NYC types will tell you to go fuck yourself on the street for walking on the wrong half of the sidewalk, and will give you the finger for basically any reason. But in private I found most of them to be warm, vibrant people. And, paradoxically, when I slipped on the street, random strangers were immediately jumping to my side to see if I'm okay and helping me up. To paraphrase an old boss who was from NJ: we respect you enough to stab you in the front, and never in the back. California, by comparison, was just as ruthless as Wall Street corpo raiders, but with a thick veneer of BS smattered all over it.
gustavus 3y ago
I'm between a 1/8 and a 1/4 dutch and I emphasize with what the speaker is saying, sounds like the Dutch may be my people.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
As an American in Finland I'm sure plenty of Finnish people think my mannerisms come off as fake. But I just figure the best of them will take my natural bubbliness as a fun treat, something a bit different from the otherwise reserved nature of the culture here. There's very little to be sad about in my life, especially given that I get to live in such a lovely country, and I'm not shy about showing it. :)
- willsmith72 3y ago
  this is a really great attitude, and as someone who's lived in Germany, it can be a really hard thing to do. In the end we are who we are. You can go crazy trying to fit in or try to let it go and stop caring about the stares and disapproving looks.
- Beijinger 3y ago
  Two Finish people are sitting at a bar and drinking beer. First Fin says "Skoll!" (Cheers) Second Fin asks "Are we here to drink or to talk?"
- wozniacki 3y ago
  Mind you being nice is not the same thing as being genuine. The problem is not with advertising ( or over advertising ) that youre happy when your are indeed happy. The problem is with not doing so when the situation is inversed - that is advertising youre unhappy when you are indeed unhappy - and couching it in good cheer for outward appearances. People in most cultures value genuineness over fake cheer although no one really is fully immune to fake cheerfulness and often find themselves falling for it - even when they want to fight it. Because in the end after all the cake and watermelon, its a form of deceitful presentation of the self - whether the person intended it or not. It trips you up in your read of the other person and thus leads to a maladjusted state of affairs where you are forever adjusting and hedging your reactions to the others person true emotions. Its a tax on your mental faculties.
joecool1029 3y ago
I wonder if the dutch history is why most new yorkers seem to be very direct. There are definitely different regions of America that pull the fake thing more than others (one example I can think of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_your_heart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_your_heart )
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  It's opportunity cost. New Yorkers making $300,000 feel the twinge of lost time much more acutely than, say, the average Minnesotan making $30,000. Indeed, in most countries, you'll notice the dialect of the capital city of the prominent language contains a lot more clipped and shortened words than the rural dialects tend to. This happens here in Finland - Helsinkians speak a much more abbreviation heavy Finnish than the dairy farmers up in Pohjois-Pohjanmaa, which has sort of the equivalent of Finnish southern drawl.
  - mpol 3y ago
    Huh, why is this downvoted? In the Netherlands, efficiency is part of communicaton, especially in cities. In more rural places people connect a bit more and take time for eachother. These are different rules. And yes, sometimes Dutch people are rude because they like to be. Different people, different strokes.
    - xhevahir 3y ago
      I didn't downvote the comment myself, but I do think it's glib and reductionist in a way that purely economic arguments often are. In general I find explanations of this kind of behaviors are often facile rationalizations of things that are mostly non-rational and that are absorbed from one's social environment and then imitated.
    - NoboruWataya 3y ago
      > Huh, why is this downvoted? Because tying it to salary seems pseudo-scentific and rather snobbish (but happy to be corrected if there is solid science backing it). Are rich people generally more direct than poor people within a culture? Not in my experience. The distinction between urban and rural is valid in my experience. But the urban poor tend to be on the same side of this divide as the urban rich. (edit: Just to be clear, I didn't downvote it)
deleted 3y ago
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dotnet00 3y ago
I don't fully buy the points being made, I agree that emotions are cultured, but as someone from a different culture, I've felt that Americans are more "genuine". My own culture is all about distrusting others and being very selective about what you reveal about yourself and paying close attention to material balance in social interactions so someone else isn't getting more out of the relationship than you. A point that came up last time I was visiting my home country was that my habit of thanking the cashier after finishing my transaction was a glaring giveaway that I was an outsider, and that I should be careful about it to avoid being taken advantage of. In comparison, American culture has been very freeing, I can typically trust people to not be trying to stab me in the back, I don't have to worry as much about taking advantage of by friends, I can ask people to be honest about me and they will be, and so on. There are a lot of little pleasantries with strangers that took time to become fluent at, but people you actually know seem to be just as honest as what the author describes the Dutch as being, just with a lot of initial padding like "please don't take this the wrong way". The example given of being asked to dinner and responding bluntly with "I'm busy tomorrow" doesn't seem that rude to me, but to be fair, I am in a physics and engineering environment, neither groups of people being known for their social smoothness :)
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
> Thank you for dinner” felt to me as an act of distancing Is this really? I am French so we are rather private (in the sense that friendship is something that takes time, and before that there are rather generic interactions). But if my best friend whom I adore and whatnot did a dinner for me I would thank him very much. I wild be surprised if "thank you" is not used between friends in the Netherlands
- mpol 3y ago
  Yes, it can be used. Depending on different nuances and intonations, it can be considered polite and distancing, or authentic and meant for connecting.
- stcredzero 3y ago
  > Thank you for dinner” felt to me as an act of distancing True story. One of the major times I almost broke up (before we got married) with my wife, who grew up in Fujian China, is the first time I told her, "I love you," and she replied, "Thank you." (Now, on our anniversary, I might get her a bouquet with a note saying, "You're welcome.") First time I almost broke up with her before we married was our very first date, when she was 45 minutes late. She finally called me, telling me that the CEO came in at the last moment with a new idea, and that she would be there as soon as she could. Afterwards, she was an additional 45 minutes late, because just after she got off the phone, the CEO came in with another idea. Where she's from, where she grew up, this kind of thing is just unfortunate but, "understandable."
- twiss 3y ago
  I think part of the reason was what was missing: > I would have liked my guests to say that they were looking forward to spending more time with me, that they really liked the evening together, or that they felt happy or connected to me. As a Dutch person, I think saying "Thanks for dinner, was fun!" is fine, but I could see how saying just the first part, or focusing too much on the effort spent on the food, could make me suspicious, as if that was the most positive thing that can be said about the evening. Also, I think it's quite common to exchange a few words about when one might meet next, either concretely ("See you at X event?") or vaguely ("Let's meet again sometime soon!"). If it's left out, one might suspect the other party doesn't want to meet again, perhaps.
SoftTalker 3y ago
American living in America. I've encountered all types of people. Some are taciturn, some are very direct, some dance around the subject for fear of offending, some are excessively friendly. We're a mix of cultures and I don't think you can say that all or even most Americans have the same social/emotional tendencies.
- thinkingtoilet 3y ago
  Our worlds are so different. I live in rural Massachusetts, it's a slower pace of life than New York City. People, on average, in extremely different environments will value different things and act differently. It's not 'rude' for a busy lunch place in NYC to expect you to order and get out of the way. They need to feed 15 million people.
  - loloquwowndueo 3y ago
    They “need” as if they were some sort of soup kitchen for the needy and not an expensive-as-fuck posh place. They can fuck right off, I’ll take my time enjoying the food and use of the premises that I paid for, thank you very much.
    - mrbadguy 3y ago
      Christ that escalated quickly…
- j7ake 3y ago
  Nowhere in American is asking “how are you today” to a cashier abnormal. But the article suggests that it is indeed abnormal from a a Dutch perspective. There are distinctly American customs and cultures that Europeans would look as stereotypically American.
  - kazen44 3y ago
    asking someone how they are in the netherlands is considered a genuine question about someone's wellbeing, and is considered very out of place if you don't know the person. (a cashier for instance). Also, when asking this, expect a real response back.
lifestyleguru 3y ago
Dutch are so direct and straightforward that one must draw a line when dealing with them.
BiteCode_dev 3y ago
As a Frenchman, when I worked in the valley, people told me to tone it down, that I could come off as rude. On my side, I wanted to slap those people calling others they barely knew "friends", overselling their lunch as "amazing", assuring an outcome with certainty, virtue signaling or refusing to say when something was completely wrong. It's like they were always in a tiny marketing process. Eventually, I learned to smooth communication, and to appreciate their enthusiasm. But it did take time. Also I must confess I have an American filter permanently on, now. If something comes from the US, I just assume most of it is BS until proven otherwise.
- jansan 3y ago
  People in the valley seem to be quite different from people in the southern states (the only part of the US that I have been to). I wonder if the differences within the USA are actually be as significant as the differences between parts of the US and Europe.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    When I first visited the US in 1981, I was pretty convinced (as a young, naive and somewhat ignorant Brit) that the differences between someone from New Orleans and someone from Portland, Maine were far greater than anything you could find between any two parts of Europe. Decades later, that's clearly an exaggeration or just plain wrong, but it is certainly true that people do underestimate cultural differences within the US, and overestimate them within Europe.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      I don't think people overestimate the cultural difference between Finland and Italy for example, they are extremely different. The language barriers makes Europe much more culturally diverse, but also makes that diversity much harder to discover since you can't fully understand a culture without learning its language. It is more like the cultural difference between Canada and Mexico, you don't have such a wide spread within USA. You have some parts that is more like Canadians, and some parts more like Mexicans, but Mexico to Canada is still a bigger cultural leap than anything within USA.
bananamerica 3y ago
I don't believe Americans are fake, but I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat, and that is kind of sad.
- floxy 3y ago
  >I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat Interesting. Since I'm the fish who can't see the water, could you provide me with some examples of this?
  - bananamerica 3y ago
    Just look at how some primates use an abundance of facial muscles to establish they're not a threat. Or how having the local accent can show you are not an invader. The sing-songy greetings,the smiles, etc, can be read as demonstrations that you are not a threat. Americans have to do that in almost all times and contexts.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      This is an interesting point, but I think the reason for it is a little different than you're suggesting. When I was younger and would go hiking or climbing in Scotland and Wales, I would definitely have to be quite mindful of "showing I was not a threat" when entering small village stores and pubs there. The more densely and contiguously populated and area is, the easier it is to (a) feel a part of the "in group" (b) not feel aware of the difference between "insiders" and "outsiders". My experience is that the behavior you describe in Americans is roughly proportional to population density and tourism levels. Areas with lots of people and/or lots of visitors do not require this "low threat establishment". Areas with less people and/or less visitors often do so. I think this is true of Europe just as much as the USA, and I would guess it is probably the same worldwide.
- yonaguska 3y ago
  I would hazard that this is a function of our Wild West/Frontier culture. America had individual gun ownership since inception. Unlike Europe where lethal weapons/training were not available to every level of the social strata. America was a free-for-all for a very long time with very different cultures clashing constantly. You did not want to present as a threat in a world like that. I wonder if this is still common in less developed countries where life is cheap and access to lethality is easy. More contemporarily, I can speak specifically to black culture- if you're black interacting with white strangers in a foreign environment, you may find yourself being overtly friendly to strangers simply as a means to compensate against any potential stereotypes. I'm sure being a minority in any situation can elicit this reaction though, including being a white minority. And I've also experience d the opposite, where I'm a "white" minority- and I had to simultaneously present myself as not being a threat, but also not an easy victim.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
I have a long history of trouble with intimacy and long-term relationships, and as a result, I live alone and rather isolated. I have a few friends on FB and others who I email on a regular basis, and I try to cultivate closeness with them as much as electronically possible. But many of my social interactions are based in commerce. So I'll go to a restaurant to eat, alone. I'll go grocery shopping, alone. And so the clerk/cashier/waitress greets me and serves me and of course they're nice, because their wages are on the line here. And gradually I just felt fake and futile, because all these pleasantries we exchanged had an undercurrent of a business transaction and not the bonds of trust, fraternity, an actual relationship. Yes, it does feel really hollow when I enter a store and the clerk greets me enthusiastically, because they don't know me, and any concern for one another's feelings, that's merely a business transaction. I tire of this fakery.
- sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
  As someone who worked a long time in service (not in America, in the anecdotally much more socially cold Germany) I was friendly and welcoming to all customers (unless I had a really bad day for some reason, so about 95% of the time) and I always meant it. It just makes your work much more fun and time pass faster than being sullen and distanced. It hs nothing to do with my wages being on the line, I literally had zero obligation to be nice to customers. But every once in a while I had a pleasant interaction and that made it worth the effort. I would bet it’s the same for your crockery clerks. That kind of work is very boring and repetitive and social interaction is the only respite you get from it. Just something to keep in mind when you are feeling cynical about them greeting you friendly and so on.
  - j7ake 3y ago
    Thank you for sharing.
- StreetChief 3y ago
  You are not alone.
9dev 3y ago
> When my son’s teacher told my mom she was being appreciated as a grandmother, she emphasized that my mom was special to her grandchildren— a domain over which she could claim to have some authority, being the teacher of my son. This is not fake at all: it is just a feeling that comes from a focus on those features or accomplishments that would give the other person reason to feel good about themselves. You are a wonderful grandmother [...] But here's what I don't understand. The teacher doesn't actually know whether her mother was a wonderful grandmother -- after all, she just got to know her! I get that the intent is to make another person feel good about themselves, but if you praise anything and everyone, how does this praise convey anything special? Edit: I guess my actual question is this: How do you tell plain courtesy from actual commendation? When do you know someone actually means it?
- kazen44 3y ago
  > I get that the intent is to make another person feel good about themselves, but if you praise anything and everyone, how does this praise convey anything special? i have noticed that the inverse also exists. Especially in northern/eastern europe. Calling out the cynical truth and how everything is bad but could also be so much worse seems to be way for people to connect. This often happens in a crisis situation aswell.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I think it can be reasonably believed that the teacher must've meant it. She doesn't know the grandmother, but she does know the kids, and kids tend to be fairly open about excitedly telling their friends that their grandma is visiting. Eg my niece's teachers know she really enjoys it when I visit despite never having met me because she draws me often. It can also just be seen as an appreciation towards the grandmother for being there enough for the kids to come to the meeting.
PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
A couple of questions/observations as someone born in the UK who emigrated to the US at 25. 1. I wonder when this "difference between culture-driven emotions" fades away. I've been in the US for 35 years now, and I still sometimes sense that I'm viewing interactions the way a British person would (less often than I used to) 2. I wonder how the "noise" of differences between individuals compares in "amplitude" to the ability of culture to shape emotion. Any given population of any significant size will likely contain fairly wide variations of introversion, sociability, communication comfort, positivity, etc. etc. To what extent does or can cultural factors create any sort of coherent pattern "on top" of that variation? 3. Some US habits can be seen as having nothing to do with the relationships between individuals, and everything to do with creating certain social moods. The reason that US retail interactions are studded with "Have a nice day" is not, in general, because anyone actually cares that much about whether your day is nice or not, but because having people behaving in that way creates an easy going, affable mood in which people's anger, disappointment and sadness of the moment is not really appropriate to bring to the surface. It can seem grating and "fake" on early encounters with it, but after a while (maybe a long while), you can appreciate it as a communal, non-coercive effort to "make nice" because everyone benefits from that, on average and over time. 4. US English really needs to re-acquaint (no pun intend) itself with the word "acquaintance" as an alternative to "friend". The almost universal use of "friend" to describe anyone you know (even from the most singular and minor of interactions) really robs verbal behavior about the social environment here of so much subtlety.
- dr_dshiv 3y ago
  > 4. US English really needs to re-acquaint (no pun intend) itself with the word "acquaintance" as an alternative to "friend". The almost universal use of "friend" to describe anyone you know (even from the most singular and minor of interactions) really robs verbal behavior about the social environment here of so much subtlety Well, we just call them brothers or sisters if they are that close. Actually…
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    You can see the same thing with "neighbor". In the UK that refers to someone who lives in one of the houses adjacent to yours. In the USA it can refer to anyone who lives anywhere in some loosely-defined neighborhood. "My neighbor" can be someone who lives a mile or two away, which by UK standards is absurd.
Krasnol 3y ago
It was always fun seeing new people at the US company I've been working in Germany. The way the Germans fell for all the BS sweet talk in the beginning and just couldn't believe that it actually is BS when you warned them until they actually felt it. It lead to some weird conversations, especially when they tried to clear up a situation which has been created through US BS corporate talk. You had the German speaking the plain facts vs. the American who on one had had to keep their cool, keep the BS running AND somehow deliver the actual message because in the end it was important. Somehow the Germans learned faster, though.
twiss 3y ago
> when my friend Ann Kring pointedly commented, “Thank you for sharing,” after I had explained in great detail some convoluted story about my emotions I cannot of course claim to know the intention of this person, but I have heard this phrase said ostensibly genuinely (to me it has the association of group therapy, though that might be due to popular media). However, to me as a Dutch person, it comes across as devoid of meaning, a phrase that can be said if one didn't bother to listen or care to come up with any thought or more meaningful response. So, it doesn't surprise me that the author read it as sarcastic (although she might've been right, again I can't know). The social expectation in the Netherlands to always come up with a response and share your opinion or thoughts, rather than just listening silently and nod (or say “Thank you for sharing,” which to me amounts to almost the same thing) can be criticized as well, of course. It can be a bit exhausting, at times. But, it also contributes to the feeling of having a genuine connection and conversation.
rafaelero 3y ago
The few Dutch folks I know are indeed kind of rude. One time I (Brazilian) went out to get some drinks with some Dutch friends and, omg, they spent the whole night trashing other people. I am accostumed to do it in a much more delicate way, while they didn't hold it back for a second.
- StreetChief 3y ago
  Your singular experience may not be representative of all Dutch...
  - rafaelero 3y ago
    Yeah, maybe. I guess what stood out the most was not exactly the trashing part (which we all do some way or another), but how they didn't feel the need to soften the words. Since I was the only one who seemed a bit shocked by that, I thought that was perhaps cultural.
- mpol 3y ago
  That is considered rude in the Netherlands as well. But yes, many people do it. And you know that if you are out of sight, they will talk that way about you. It's a certain way of lashing out or letting go in an emotional way, some way to survive the complexity of life. It is correct to call it ugly. It can even be correct to talk to people about what they are doing. Ofcourse, if people are old and set in their ways, there is no helping. But young people can still be educated. There is some idea that you need to be "strong" (whatever that is) or "fit in", which is just wrong to me. If you don't, people judge you and talk bad about you. I know lots of people who do it about many people, even their closest friends.
- richliss 3y ago
  Dutch directness, and as a consequence rudeness, is legendary. They'd be world champions at it. Add in a fair amount of arrogance and you've got a reasonable chance of being on the end of what most would describe as them being rude. Here's an example, Two middle aged British couples go to a bar in Amsterdam, and quietly sit at a table in the corner having a few drinks. The bar then becomes a Karaoke bar filled with student aged locals who are very raucous, spilling drinks etc. At the end of the night, one of the men from one of the couples goes to the bar and gives the barman a tip equal to about 20% of that tables spend. The barman then proceeds to tell the man "I dislike British women". The Dutch barman thought that was acceptable and that there would be no recourse. If that were said in many parts of the UK there's a chance the barman would have a pint glass thrown at his head for saying such a rude and out of nowhere thing. As a Brit who has been to many, many European countries, I can say there's only really two countries that are really different and that's France and The Netherlands. Neither of their general population really feels any obligation to be courteous or polite to foreigners. The locals from every other European country I've been to have been polite/not rude as a bare minimum.
FaridIO 3y ago
Dutchman living in NYC; this article is spot on. It gets slightly easier with time, but I've been here ~9 years and I still feel it.
fredsmith219 3y ago
So which is it? Do you want fake civility or sincere rudeness?
- teekert 3y ago
  The whole point is is that it’s not fake, it feels fake to us, and we (I’m Dutch) are not rude, it feels rude to Americans. We value different things. They are trying to be nice by making compliments, we try to connect by being brutally honest (orthogonal but both positive?). I can tell you our Dutch waiters can learn a thing or two from their US counterparts about service (well maybe it’s also because we hardly tip, but still). Germans are already different by the way, my German colleague was a bit shocked when he had a hair cut and one colleague walked in asking if he tried to do it himself followed by another asking if he fell down the stairs. It’s camaraderie, I guess mostly in younger people. Honestly his hair wasn’t bad at all.
  - kazen44 3y ago
    tipping in my opinion is rather rude. as a bussiness, you are basically asking for a handout to make the lives of your waiting staff bearable. In my opinion this mean you should not run a business. Why would i tip someone when they do their job? Should we do this for all jobs? (the same goes for the military in my opinion).
    - teekert 3y ago
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      I am (or was) fundamentally against tipping, and I agree that people should simply get paid to do their job. However, I've followed the debates occuring in the USA as a handful of restaurants have experimented with no-tip policies, and I am now really ambivalent about the practice. Several restaurants with owners who sounded very committed to end tipping have returned to it; I've read remarks from many waitstaff who say that they prefer and can make far more that way than they would ever be paid on a salary. I don't think there's a clear answer. My gut still tells me that it's a bad idea, but I do not want to ignore stories from those actually working in and around businesses where this is a thing.
StreetChief 3y ago
If you want evidence of the success of liars in America, just look at Trump.
ska 3y ago
I've suspected Postel's law applies to human communication also, mutatis mutandis.
forinti 3y ago
I don't think you know rudeness until you've had to deal with Portuguese bureaucracy. It's so blunt it actually makes me laugh.
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
Alcohol will smoothen our cultural differences! /s
renewiltord 3y ago
Haha, this is a cluster of things. - Americans do reduce social distance with phatic conversation. "how are you?" "Good, how about yourself?" - Americans do have expected formal acknowledgements. There are a few cultures where formality is a sign of adding social distance, but in America it's definitely an acknowledgement. In another culture the emphasis will be on how much you liked the thing, but in the US, it is important to say "thank you" - There is a lot of fake positivity in the US for sure. For instance, you'll see this online with "I don't know who needs to hear this but YOU ARE LOVED". That's a strange sentiment to express. How could you know? But ultimately it's mostly just words. The sentiments expressed are the same and the language is just different. It might just be a thing among Anglophones since the British are somehow worse about the word / intention mismatch though without the enthusiasm. This does remind me of that Reddit thread where an Eastern European asks "Guys, what is a chamicha? My American colleagues always compliment me on it and I thank them and we go on." where it was discovered that it was "Nice to meet you".
jackbravo 3y ago
> This is a classic case of Ask Culture meets Guess Culture. From the classic https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet... referenced elsewhere like in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703
deafpolygon 3y ago
“There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.”
throwaway307053 3y ago
As an American living in America, I've had a hard time fitting in to many social situations because it's difficult for me to "be fake", and it feels very awkward when people "act fake" with me. I appreciate some aspects of American social culture, but the forced "niceness" and fake compliments/questions irk me. My ideal style is somewhere between Dutch directness and American friendliness - mostly direct, but with a generally more "positive" affect than the "neutral"-seeming Dutch approach, and more open to having friendly interactions with strangers without being "fake".
Yodel0914 3y ago
A while back we spent 5 weeks in the US, visiting a handful of states (California, Arizona, Nevada etc). The people we met were universally polite and often kind (except for one drunk English guy). A random person on a bus noticed we were tourists and spent ages giving us recommendations for local things to do; retail workers would notice our accent and ask about the bushfires (this was late 2019 when half of Australia was burning). However, pretty much the whole time it felt a bit like we were being boisterous in church. As polite as everyone was, it felt at least in part fake; like they were a bad actor over-playing a role; like they were tolerating us but wished we'd just shut up and leave. Conversations felt shallow - if I actually responded with anything of substance about the bushfires, for example, they seemed to lose interest immediately. There was a sense of guardedness that meant I could rarely tell when anyone actually thought. Australians are typically rather... open in that respect. As we were lining up to board our flight home, I heard groups of other Australians talking and instantly let of of a tension I hadn't realized I was carrying. Like I'd walked out of church and was allowed to act normally again.
lmm 3y ago
I moved from the UK to Japan four years ago. The biggest culture shock hasn't been interacting with Japanese people, it's been interacting with Americans.
082349872349872 3y ago
So am I alone in being offended that my android mobile addresses me per du (tutoyer/jij zeggen)? We have only recently made each other's acquaintance; we are not friends (we haven't even shared a meal, let alone a glass); and it can't even presume to practise the same sports I do. What gives?
6R1M0R4CL3 3y ago
i hate everyone. every single nationality bores me to death. most humans are a waste of perfectly good atoms. this whole planet is a cosmic turd. i don't even like myself ! i'm the worst of all humans on this planet.

57 points by Nevin1901 3y ago

Nevin1901 3y ago

As someone who recently moved from The Netherlands to USA, I found this article to be really great at explaining the reason why many Europeans find Americans to be fake. I myself had experienced all of the social experiences the author talked about, and found myself confused as to what a "friend" was in The USA. I also find it very interesting how the author described emotions as cultured - not just something which was the same to everyone. I'm curious to hear your thoughts and experiences with different cultures.

floxy 3y ago
Cultural differences aren't limited to international interactions either. Here's an interesting thing about exclamation points. Apparently there are (at least) two cultures of exclamation point usage in English. Apparently one culture uses them frequently as a marker of expressing general excitedness. The other culture sees them akin to yelling, which is appropriate only a small fraction of the time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38942179 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38942179
- bombcar 3y ago
  You forgot the exclamationistas, related to the commakazis, who just pour them!!! everywhere!!! whether!!! it makes sense!! or not!!!!
- ks1723 3y ago
  Interestingly I became aware of a similar cultural difference regarding punctuation: I frequently use three dots ‚…‘ in more informal emails at the end of a sentence to indicate that I am not sure about something yet or still wondering about it. Like „I guess we could discuss this tomorrow…“ or „Yeah, I might be able to do this…“ Some month ago an Italian PhD student of mine (I’m from Germany) asked me if I was upset or mad at him. I had no idea why he was asking and was completely taken aback by this suggestion. But turns out, in Italy (at least the northern part of it), the three dots typically indicate that you are upset or at least impatient with the receiver. I still wonder how many of my Italian collaborators I have sent strange impatient emails in the past…
  - __jonas 3y ago
    Hate to break it to you, but it has the same subtext here in Germany
    - ks1723 3y ago
      Hmm, interesting. I really wonder how I could miss this all my life. (Would have made them here as well, but not anymore) Edit: spelling
      - __jonas 3y ago
        To be fair, maybe I was a bit quick with this claim, I think it works across languages and is more of a generational thing, strange Reddit link (sorry) but I feel like this explains it pretty well: https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fs1rtwqhly8s71.jpg https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fs... With the ellipsis I do feel like the tone is very context dependent.
        ks1723 3y ago
        Ha, it’s just that I am old ;-) Thanks for the link!
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    I think the ellipses have that connotation in a lot of places and kind of like with all-caps and exclamation marks, it doesn't seem as strongly connected to culture. Some of my Indian friends use it the same way as you do, which often throws off some of my American friends, who interpret it as impatience, and vice versa.
    - Lio 3y ago
      A nice Indian lady I used to work with was horrified when I pointed out that her use of the "eye rolling" emoji is seen as rude and dismissive by lots of people. It's always worth being aware of these differences if you can be and also giving people the benefit of the doubt too.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU COULD MEAN BY THAT.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  This exactly!
xhevahir 3y ago
This article about Russian's habit of yelling is interesting: https://classical-russian-literature.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-russian-game-of-yell.html?m=1 https://classical-russian-literature.blogspot.com/2020/07/th... I haven't been to Russia but some of it reminds me of encounters I've had in Greece.
- negus 3y ago
  As a Russian living among Greeks I can not say that I experienced any unusual rudeness. But yes, permanent smiling may be considered to be deceptive and insincere by some Russians. But anyway: people tend to express themself in many different ways. It is great to be tolerant to others, while trying to be polite and culture-aware yourself.
  - xhevahir 3y ago
    The interactions I had--some of them, I should add--in Greece were combative from an American perspective and not a Russian one. If the scenes described in the link are typical of Russian life, then the Greeks I encountered indeed probably would not strike a Russian as rude.
technothrasher 3y ago
Here's a cultural question I've been wondering since I visited Amsterdam as an American- I was walking along an up hill street in the evening, and I saw a young lady talking to her friends and smoking, with a baby in a stroller. The stroller started to roll down the hill slightly and she didn't seem to notice. It then picked up a little speed, so I moved to intercept it, and rolled it back up to her. When I delivered her child back to her she just looked at me with a slightly blank look, then gave a very quick barking laugh, and turned back to her friends. We didn't exchange any words. I moved on and went about my business, but to this day I have absolutely zero idea what her reaction meant <shrug>.
- holoduke 3y ago
  A bit ashamed probably, but definitely not the reaction you would expect from a Dutch person who almost lost her pram. A normal reaction would include a 'thank you' and maybe a joke to justify the act.
- mpol 3y ago
  We live in a bizarro world. Not sure if that was what she meant, I wasnt there. But if I responded that way, this would be the meaning.
- dr_dshiv 3y ago
  Hill? In Amsterdam? Suspicious detail!
  - DonHopkins 3y ago
    Amsterdam is a city of many mountains: the bridges over the canals.
- yread 3y ago
  > Amsterdam > up hill street ? Do you mean a highway ramp or a bridge?
  - alejo 3y ago
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christkv 3y ago
There is a huge different between a blue collar New Yorker and a Palo Alto techie in culture though. I’ll take the nyc rudeness over the fake politeness in California. As a European I fund New Yorkers much easier to connect and befriend people than people from both the pacific coast.
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  Same. NYC types will tell you to go fuck yourself on the street for walking on the wrong half of the sidewalk, and will give you the finger for basically any reason. But in private I found most of them to be warm, vibrant people. And, paradoxically, when I slipped on the street, random strangers were immediately jumping to my side to see if I'm okay and helping me up. To paraphrase an old boss who was from NJ: we respect you enough to stab you in the front, and never in the back. California, by comparison, was just as ruthless as Wall Street corpo raiders, but with a thick veneer of BS smattered all over it.

gustavus 3y ago

I'm between a 1/8 and a 1/4 dutch and I emphasize with what the speaker is saying, sounds like the Dutch may be my people.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

As an American in Finland I'm sure plenty of Finnish people think my mannerisms come off as fake. But I just figure the best of them will take my natural bubbliness as a fun treat, something a bit different from the otherwise reserved nature of the culture here. There's very little to be sad about in my life, especially given that I get to live in such a lovely country, and I'm not shy about showing it. :)

willsmith72 3y ago
this is a really great attitude, and as someone who's lived in Germany, it can be a really hard thing to do. In the end we are who we are. You can go crazy trying to fit in or try to let it go and stop caring about the stares and disapproving looks.
Beijinger 3y ago
Two Finish people are sitting at a bar and drinking beer. First Fin says "Skoll!" (Cheers) Second Fin asks "Are we here to drink or to talk?"
wozniacki 3y ago
Mind you being nice is not the same thing as being genuine. The problem is not with advertising ( or over advertising ) that youre happy when your are indeed happy. The problem is with not doing so when the situation is inversed - that is advertising youre unhappy when you are indeed unhappy - and couching it in good cheer for outward appearances. People in most cultures value genuineness over fake cheer although no one really is fully immune to fake cheerfulness and often find themselves falling for it - even when they want to fight it. Because in the end after all the cake and watermelon, its a form of deceitful presentation of the self - whether the person intended it or not. It trips you up in your read of the other person and thus leads to a maladjusted state of affairs where you are forever adjusting and hedging your reactions to the others person true emotions. Its a tax on your mental faculties.

joecool1029 3y ago

I wonder if the dutch history is why most new yorkers seem to be very direct. There are definitely different regions of America that pull the fake thing more than others (one example I can think of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_your_heart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bless_your_heart )

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
It's opportunity cost. New Yorkers making $300,000 feel the twinge of lost time much more acutely than, say, the average Minnesotan making $30,000. Indeed, in most countries, you'll notice the dialect of the capital city of the prominent language contains a lot more clipped and shortened words than the rural dialects tend to. This happens here in Finland - Helsinkians speak a much more abbreviation heavy Finnish than the dairy farmers up in Pohjois-Pohjanmaa, which has sort of the equivalent of Finnish southern drawl.
- mpol 3y ago
  Huh, why is this downvoted? In the Netherlands, efficiency is part of communicaton, especially in cities. In more rural places people connect a bit more and take time for eachother. These are different rules. And yes, sometimes Dutch people are rude because they like to be. Different people, different strokes.
  - xhevahir 3y ago
    I didn't downvote the comment myself, but I do think it's glib and reductionist in a way that purely economic arguments often are. In general I find explanations of this kind of behaviors are often facile rationalizations of things that are mostly non-rational and that are absorbed from one's social environment and then imitated.
  - NoboruWataya 3y ago
    > Huh, why is this downvoted? Because tying it to salary seems pseudo-scentific and rather snobbish (but happy to be corrected if there is solid science backing it). Are rich people generally more direct than poor people within a culture? Not in my experience. The distinction between urban and rural is valid in my experience. But the urban poor tend to be on the same side of this divide as the urban rich. (edit: Just to be clear, I didn't downvote it)

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dotnet00 3y ago

I don't fully buy the points being made, I agree that emotions are cultured, but as someone from a different culture, I've felt that Americans are more "genuine". My own culture is all about distrusting others and being very selective about what you reveal about yourself and paying close attention to material balance in social interactions so someone else isn't getting more out of the relationship than you. A point that came up last time I was visiting my home country was that my habit of thanking the cashier after finishing my transaction was a glaring giveaway that I was an outsider, and that I should be careful about it to avoid being taken advantage of. In comparison, American culture has been very freeing, I can typically trust people to not be trying to stab me in the back, I don't have to worry as much about taking advantage of by friends, I can ask people to be honest about me and they will be, and so on. There are a lot of little pleasantries with strangers that took time to become fluent at, but people you actually know seem to be just as honest as what the author describes the Dutch as being, just with a lot of initial padding like "please don't take this the wrong way". The example given of being asked to dinner and responding bluntly with "I'm busy tomorrow" doesn't seem that rude to me, but to be fair, I am in a physics and engineering environment, neither groups of people being known for their social smoothness :)

BrandoElFollito 3y ago

> Thank you for dinner” felt to me as an act of distancing Is this really? I am French so we are rather private (in the sense that friendship is something that takes time, and before that there are rather generic interactions). But if my best friend whom I adore and whatnot did a dinner for me I would thank him very much. I wild be surprised if "thank you" is not used between friends in the Netherlands

mpol 3y ago
Yes, it can be used. Depending on different nuances and intonations, it can be considered polite and distancing, or authentic and meant for connecting.
stcredzero 3y ago
> Thank you for dinner” felt to me as an act of distancing True story. One of the major times I almost broke up (before we got married) with my wife, who grew up in Fujian China, is the first time I told her, "I love you," and she replied, "Thank you." (Now, on our anniversary, I might get her a bouquet with a note saying, "You're welcome.") First time I almost broke up with her before we married was our very first date, when she was 45 minutes late. She finally called me, telling me that the CEO came in at the last moment with a new idea, and that she would be there as soon as she could. Afterwards, she was an additional 45 minutes late, because just after she got off the phone, the CEO came in with another idea. Where she's from, where she grew up, this kind of thing is just unfortunate but, "understandable."
twiss 3y ago
I think part of the reason was what was missing: > I would have liked my guests to say that they were looking forward to spending more time with me, that they really liked the evening together, or that they felt happy or connected to me. As a Dutch person, I think saying "Thanks for dinner, was fun!" is fine, but I could see how saying just the first part, or focusing too much on the effort spent on the food, could make me suspicious, as if that was the most positive thing that can be said about the evening. Also, I think it's quite common to exchange a few words about when one might meet next, either concretely ("See you at X event?") or vaguely ("Let's meet again sometime soon!"). If it's left out, one might suspect the other party doesn't want to meet again, perhaps.

SoftTalker 3y ago

American living in America. I've encountered all types of people. Some are taciturn, some are very direct, some dance around the subject for fear of offending, some are excessively friendly. We're a mix of cultures and I don't think you can say that all or even most Americans have the same social/emotional tendencies.

thinkingtoilet 3y ago
Our worlds are so different. I live in rural Massachusetts, it's a slower pace of life than New York City. People, on average, in extremely different environments will value different things and act differently. It's not 'rude' for a busy lunch place in NYC to expect you to order and get out of the way. They need to feed 15 million people.
- loloquwowndueo 3y ago
  They “need” as if they were some sort of soup kitchen for the needy and not an expensive-as-fuck posh place. They can fuck right off, I’ll take my time enjoying the food and use of the premises that I paid for, thank you very much.
  - mrbadguy 3y ago
    Christ that escalated quickly…
j7ake 3y ago
Nowhere in American is asking “how are you today” to a cashier abnormal. But the article suggests that it is indeed abnormal from a a Dutch perspective. There are distinctly American customs and cultures that Europeans would look as stereotypically American.
- kazen44 3y ago
  asking someone how they are in the netherlands is considered a genuine question about someone's wellbeing, and is considered very out of place if you don't know the person. (a cashier for instance). Also, when asking this, expect a real response back.

lifestyleguru 3y ago

Dutch are so direct and straightforward that one must draw a line when dealing with them.

BiteCode_dev 3y ago

As a Frenchman, when I worked in the valley, people told me to tone it down, that I could come off as rude. On my side, I wanted to slap those people calling others they barely knew "friends", overselling their lunch as "amazing", assuring an outcome with certainty, virtue signaling or refusing to say when something was completely wrong. It's like they were always in a tiny marketing process. Eventually, I learned to smooth communication, and to appreciate their enthusiasm. But it did take time. Also I must confess I have an American filter permanently on, now. If something comes from the US, I just assume most of it is BS until proven otherwise.

jansan 3y ago
People in the valley seem to be quite different from people in the southern states (the only part of the US that I have been to). I wonder if the differences within the USA are actually be as significant as the differences between parts of the US and Europe.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  When I first visited the US in 1981, I was pretty convinced (as a young, naive and somewhat ignorant Brit) that the differences between someone from New Orleans and someone from Portland, Maine were far greater than anything you could find between any two parts of Europe. Decades later, that's clearly an exaggeration or just plain wrong, but it is certainly true that people do underestimate cultural differences within the US, and overestimate them within Europe.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    I don't think people overestimate the cultural difference between Finland and Italy for example, they are extremely different. The language barriers makes Europe much more culturally diverse, but also makes that diversity much harder to discover since you can't fully understand a culture without learning its language. It is more like the cultural difference between Canada and Mexico, you don't have such a wide spread within USA. You have some parts that is more like Canadians, and some parts more like Mexicans, but Mexico to Canada is still a bigger cultural leap than anything within USA.

bananamerica 3y ago

I don't believe Americans are fake, but I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat, and that is kind of sad.

floxy 3y ago
>I do believe that Americans are trained since an early age to display at all times that they're not a threat Interesting. Since I'm the fish who can't see the water, could you provide me with some examples of this?
- bananamerica 3y ago
  Just look at how some primates use an abundance of facial muscles to establish they're not a threat. Or how having the local accent can show you are not an invader. The sing-songy greetings,the smiles, etc, can be read as demonstrations that you are not a threat. Americans have to do that in almost all times and contexts.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    This is an interesting point, but I think the reason for it is a little different than you're suggesting. When I was younger and would go hiking or climbing in Scotland and Wales, I would definitely have to be quite mindful of "showing I was not a threat" when entering small village stores and pubs there. The more densely and contiguously populated and area is, the easier it is to (a) feel a part of the "in group" (b) not feel aware of the difference between "insiders" and "outsiders". My experience is that the behavior you describe in Americans is roughly proportional to population density and tourism levels. Areas with lots of people and/or lots of visitors do not require this "low threat establishment". Areas with less people and/or less visitors often do so. I think this is true of Europe just as much as the USA, and I would guess it is probably the same worldwide.
yonaguska 3y ago
I would hazard that this is a function of our Wild West/Frontier culture. America had individual gun ownership since inception. Unlike Europe where lethal weapons/training were not available to every level of the social strata. America was a free-for-all for a very long time with very different cultures clashing constantly. You did not want to present as a threat in a world like that. I wonder if this is still common in less developed countries where life is cheap and access to lethality is easy. More contemporarily, I can speak specifically to black culture- if you're black interacting with white strangers in a foreign environment, you may find yourself being overtly friendly to strangers simply as a means to compensate against any potential stereotypes. I'm sure being a minority in any situation can elicit this reaction though, including being a white minority. And I've also experience d the opposite, where I'm a "white" minority- and I had to simultaneously present myself as not being a threat, but also not an easy victim.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago

I have a long history of trouble with intimacy and long-term relationships, and as a result, I live alone and rather isolated. I have a few friends on FB and others who I email on a regular basis, and I try to cultivate closeness with them as much as electronically possible. But many of my social interactions are based in commerce. So I'll go to a restaurant to eat, alone. I'll go grocery shopping, alone. And so the clerk/cashier/waitress greets me and serves me and of course they're nice, because their wages are on the line here. And gradually I just felt fake and futile, because all these pleasantries we exchanged had an undercurrent of a business transaction and not the bonds of trust, fraternity, an actual relationship. Yes, it does feel really hollow when I enter a store and the clerk greets me enthusiastically, because they don't know me, and any concern for one another's feelings, that's merely a business transaction. I tire of this fakery.

sjfjsjdjwvwvc 3y ago
As someone who worked a long time in service (not in America, in the anecdotally much more socially cold Germany) I was friendly and welcoming to all customers (unless I had a really bad day for some reason, so about 95% of the time) and I always meant it. It just makes your work much more fun and time pass faster than being sullen and distanced. It hs nothing to do with my wages being on the line, I literally had zero obligation to be nice to customers. But every once in a while I had a pleasant interaction and that made it worth the effort. I would bet it’s the same for your crockery clerks. That kind of work is very boring and repetitive and social interaction is the only respite you get from it. Just something to keep in mind when you are feeling cynical about them greeting you friendly and so on.
- j7ake 3y ago
  Thank you for sharing.
StreetChief 3y ago
You are not alone.

9dev 3y ago

> When my son’s teacher told my mom she was being appreciated as a grandmother, she emphasized that my mom was special to her grandchildren— a domain over which she could claim to have some authority, being the teacher of my son. This is not fake at all: it is just a feeling that comes from a focus on those features or accomplishments that would give the other person reason to feel good about themselves. You are a wonderful grandmother [...] But here's what I don't understand. The teacher doesn't actually know whether her mother was a wonderful grandmother -- after all, she just got to know her! I get that the intent is to make another person feel good about themselves, but if you praise anything and everyone, how does this praise convey anything special? Edit: I guess my actual question is this: How do you tell plain courtesy from actual commendation? When do you know someone actually means it?

kazen44 3y ago
> I get that the intent is to make another person feel good about themselves, but if you praise anything and everyone, how does this praise convey anything special? i have noticed that the inverse also exists. Especially in northern/eastern europe. Calling out the cynical truth and how everything is bad but could also be so much worse seems to be way for people to connect. This often happens in a crisis situation aswell.
dotnet00 3y ago
I think it can be reasonably believed that the teacher must've meant it. She doesn't know the grandmother, but she does know the kids, and kids tend to be fairly open about excitedly telling their friends that their grandma is visiting. Eg my niece's teachers know she really enjoys it when I visit despite never having met me because she draws me often. It can also just be seen as an appreciation towards the grandmother for being there enough for the kids to come to the meeting.

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago

A couple of questions/observations as someone born in the UK who emigrated to the US at 25. 1. I wonder when this "difference between culture-driven emotions" fades away. I've been in the US for 35 years now, and I still sometimes sense that I'm viewing interactions the way a British person would (less often than I used to) 2. I wonder how the "noise" of differences between individuals compares in "amplitude" to the ability of culture to shape emotion. Any given population of any significant size will likely contain fairly wide variations of introversion, sociability, communication comfort, positivity, etc. etc. To what extent does or can cultural factors create any sort of coherent pattern "on top" of that variation? 3. Some US habits can be seen as having nothing to do with the relationships between individuals, and everything to do with creating certain social moods. The reason that US retail interactions are studded with "Have a nice day" is not, in general, because anyone actually cares that much about whether your day is nice or not, but because having people behaving in that way creates an easy going, affable mood in which people's anger, disappointment and sadness of the moment is not really appropriate to bring to the surface. It can seem grating and "fake" on early encounters with it, but after a while (maybe a long while), you can appreciate it as a communal, non-coercive effort to "make nice" because everyone benefits from that, on average and over time. 4. US English really needs to re-acquaint (no pun intend) itself with the word "acquaintance" as an alternative to "friend". The almost universal use of "friend" to describe anyone you know (even from the most singular and minor of interactions) really robs verbal behavior about the social environment here of so much subtlety.

dr_dshiv 3y ago
> 4. US English really needs to re-acquaint (no pun intend) itself with the word "acquaintance" as an alternative to "friend". The almost universal use of "friend" to describe anyone you know (even from the most singular and minor of interactions) really robs verbal behavior about the social environment here of so much subtlety Well, we just call them brothers or sisters if they are that close. Actually…
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  You can see the same thing with "neighbor". In the UK that refers to someone who lives in one of the houses adjacent to yours. In the USA it can refer to anyone who lives anywhere in some loosely-defined neighborhood. "My neighbor" can be someone who lives a mile or two away, which by UK standards is absurd.

Krasnol 3y ago

It was always fun seeing new people at the US company I've been working in Germany. The way the Germans fell for all the BS sweet talk in the beginning and just couldn't believe that it actually is BS when you warned them until they actually felt it. It lead to some weird conversations, especially when they tried to clear up a situation which has been created through US BS corporate talk. You had the German speaking the plain facts vs. the American who on one had had to keep their cool, keep the BS running AND somehow deliver the actual message because in the end it was important. Somehow the Germans learned faster, though.

twiss 3y ago

> when my friend Ann Kring pointedly commented, “Thank you for sharing,” after I had explained in great detail some convoluted story about my emotions I cannot of course claim to know the intention of this person, but I have heard this phrase said ostensibly genuinely (to me it has the association of group therapy, though that might be due to popular media). However, to me as a Dutch person, it comes across as devoid of meaning, a phrase that can be said if one didn't bother to listen or care to come up with any thought or more meaningful response. So, it doesn't surprise me that the author read it as sarcastic (although she might've been right, again I can't know). The social expectation in the Netherlands to always come up with a response and share your opinion or thoughts, rather than just listening silently and nod (or say “Thank you for sharing,” which to me amounts to almost the same thing) can be criticized as well, of course. It can be a bit exhausting, at times. But, it also contributes to the feeling of having a genuine connection and conversation.

rafaelero 3y ago

The few Dutch folks I know are indeed kind of rude. One time I (Brazilian) went out to get some drinks with some Dutch friends and, omg, they spent the whole night trashing other people. I am accostumed to do it in a much more delicate way, while they didn't hold it back for a second.

StreetChief 3y ago
Your singular experience may not be representative of all Dutch...
- rafaelero 3y ago
  Yeah, maybe. I guess what stood out the most was not exactly the trashing part (which we all do some way or another), but how they didn't feel the need to soften the words. Since I was the only one who seemed a bit shocked by that, I thought that was perhaps cultural.
mpol 3y ago
That is considered rude in the Netherlands as well. But yes, many people do it. And you know that if you are out of sight, they will talk that way about you. It's a certain way of lashing out or letting go in an emotional way, some way to survive the complexity of life. It is correct to call it ugly. It can even be correct to talk to people about what they are doing. Ofcourse, if people are old and set in their ways, there is no helping. But young people can still be educated. There is some idea that you need to be "strong" (whatever that is) or "fit in", which is just wrong to me. If you don't, people judge you and talk bad about you. I know lots of people who do it about many people, even their closest friends.
richliss 3y ago
Dutch directness, and as a consequence rudeness, is legendary. They'd be world champions at it. Add in a fair amount of arrogance and you've got a reasonable chance of being on the end of what most would describe as them being rude. Here's an example, Two middle aged British couples go to a bar in Amsterdam, and quietly sit at a table in the corner having a few drinks. The bar then becomes a Karaoke bar filled with student aged locals who are very raucous, spilling drinks etc. At the end of the night, one of the men from one of the couples goes to the bar and gives the barman a tip equal to about 20% of that tables spend. The barman then proceeds to tell the man "I dislike British women". The Dutch barman thought that was acceptable and that there would be no recourse. If that were said in many parts of the UK there's a chance the barman would have a pint glass thrown at his head for saying such a rude and out of nowhere thing. As a Brit who has been to many, many European countries, I can say there's only really two countries that are really different and that's France and The Netherlands. Neither of their general population really feels any obligation to be courteous or polite to foreigners. The locals from every other European country I've been to have been polite/not rude as a bare minimum.

FaridIO 3y ago

Dutchman living in NYC; this article is spot on. It gets slightly easier with time, but I've been here ~9 years and I still feel it.

fredsmith219 3y ago

So which is it? Do you want fake civility or sincere rudeness?

teekert 3y ago
The whole point is is that it’s not fake, it feels fake to us, and we (I’m Dutch) are not rude, it feels rude to Americans. We value different things. They are trying to be nice by making compliments, we try to connect by being brutally honest (orthogonal but both positive?). I can tell you our Dutch waiters can learn a thing or two from their US counterparts about service (well maybe it’s also because we hardly tip, but still). Germans are already different by the way, my German colleague was a bit shocked when he had a hair cut and one colleague walked in asking if he tried to do it himself followed by another asking if he fell down the stairs. It’s camaraderie, I guess mostly in younger people. Honestly his hair wasn’t bad at all.
- kazen44 3y ago
  tipping in my opinion is rather rude. as a bussiness, you are basically asking for a handout to make the lives of your waiting staff bearable. In my opinion this mean you should not run a business. Why would i tip someone when they do their job? Should we do this for all jobs? (the same goes for the military in my opinion).
  - teekert 3y ago
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    I am (or was) fundamentally against tipping, and I agree that people should simply get paid to do their job. However, I've followed the debates occuring in the USA as a handful of restaurants have experimented with no-tip policies, and I am now really ambivalent about the practice. Several restaurants with owners who sounded very committed to end tipping have returned to it; I've read remarks from many waitstaff who say that they prefer and can make far more that way than they would ever be paid on a salary. I don't think there's a clear answer. My gut still tells me that it's a bad idea, but I do not want to ignore stories from those actually working in and around businesses where this is a thing.

StreetChief 3y ago

If you want evidence of the success of liars in America, just look at Trump.

ska 3y ago

I've suspected Postel's law applies to human communication also, mutatis mutandis.

forinti 3y ago

I don't think you know rudeness until you've had to deal with Portuguese bureaucracy. It's so blunt it actually makes me laugh.

JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago

Alcohol will smoothen our cultural differences! /s

renewiltord 3y ago

Haha, this is a cluster of things. - Americans do reduce social distance with phatic conversation. "how are you?" "Good, how about yourself?" - Americans do have expected formal acknowledgements. There are a few cultures where formality is a sign of adding social distance, but in America it's definitely an acknowledgement. In another culture the emphasis will be on how much you liked the thing, but in the US, it is important to say "thank you" - There is a lot of fake positivity in the US for sure. For instance, you'll see this online with "I don't know who needs to hear this but YOU ARE LOVED". That's a strange sentiment to express. How could you know? But ultimately it's mostly just words. The sentiments expressed are the same and the language is just different. It might just be a thing among Anglophones since the British are somehow worse about the word / intention mismatch though without the enthusiasm. This does remind me of that Reddit thread where an Eastern European asks "Guys, what is a chamicha? My American colleagues always compliment me on it and I thank them and we go on." where it was discovered that it was "Nice to meet you".

jackbravo 3y ago

> This is a classic case of Ask Culture meets Guess Culture. From the classic https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421 https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-bet... referenced elsewhere like in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37176703

deafpolygon 3y ago

“There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.”

throwaway307053 3y ago

As an American living in America, I've had a hard time fitting in to many social situations because it's difficult for me to "be fake", and it feels very awkward when people "act fake" with me. I appreciate some aspects of American social culture, but the forced "niceness" and fake compliments/questions irk me. My ideal style is somewhere between Dutch directness and American friendliness - mostly direct, but with a generally more "positive" affect than the "neutral"-seeming Dutch approach, and more open to having friendly interactions with strangers without being "fake".

Yodel0914 3y ago

A while back we spent 5 weeks in the US, visiting a handful of states (California, Arizona, Nevada etc). The people we met were universally polite and often kind (except for one drunk English guy). A random person on a bus noticed we were tourists and spent ages giving us recommendations for local things to do; retail workers would notice our accent and ask about the bushfires (this was late 2019 when half of Australia was burning). However, pretty much the whole time it felt a bit like we were being boisterous in church. As polite as everyone was, it felt at least in part fake; like they were a bad actor over-playing a role; like they were tolerating us but wished we'd just shut up and leave. Conversations felt shallow - if I actually responded with anything of substance about the bushfires, for example, they seemed to lose interest immediately. There was a sense of guardedness that meant I could rarely tell when anyone actually thought. Australians are typically rather... open in that respect. As we were lining up to board our flight home, I heard groups of other Australians talking and instantly let of of a tension I hadn't realized I was carrying. Like I'd walked out of church and was allowed to act normally again.

lmm 3y ago

I moved from the UK to Japan four years ago. The biggest culture shock hasn't been interacting with Japanese people, it's been interacting with Americans.

082349872349872 3y ago

So am I alone in being offended that my android mobile addresses me per du (tutoyer/jij zeggen)? We have only recently made each other's acquaintance; we are not friends (we haven't even shared a meal, let alone a glass); and it can't even presume to practise the same sports I do. What gives?

6R1M0R4CL3 3y ago

i hate everyone. every single nationality bores me to death. most humans are a waste of perfectly good atoms. this whole planet is a cosmic turd. i don't even like myself ! i'm the worst of all humans on this planet.