4 ms·

Neither can Europeans - even the cheapest cars are around 15k€, which is like a year of salary in some countries of the EU. You can't buy cheaper, older cars b

by vdaea 3y ago

Neither can Europeans - even the cheapest cars are around 15k€, which is like a year of salary in some countries of the EU. You can't buy cheaper, older cars because they don't let you in the city with them. Fuck poor people. So basically they are telling you to fuck off and stay at home or something.

iknowstuff 3y ago
Turns out cars don’t belong in cities, so efforts are made to undo the damage of 1960s car centric urban planning. That includes disincentivizing car ownership in cities in favor of bike lanes and transit. https://m.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes https://m.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes has some great content about the issue. TLDR: too much space wasted, too many deaths, too much noise, pollution, unpleasant neighborhoods, never-ending traffic leading to hours of labor wasted, lower tax base due to parking, sprawl, higher healthcare costs, lower access to services, extremely expensive infrastructure, etc
- vdaea 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - iknowstuff 3y ago
    Feel free to construct a cohesive argument
nemo44x 3y ago
It’s funny how poor people are always the victims in these schemes. In the USA many places let people in electric cars ,that mainly only rich people could afford, into the carpool lanes so they could travel without congestion. Of course the poor bastard in the 16 year old beater had to sit in traffic as they traveled to their second low paying job. If anything we should let high emissions cars access to low congestion lanes so they spend less time polluting.
- qball 3y ago
  >It’s funny how poor people are always the victims in these schemes. Working as intended.
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  It's worse than that. If you're rich you can pay to use the 'car pool' lane to get down to the googleplex.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > If anything we should let high emissions cars access to low congestion lanes so they spend less time polluting. That's excellent thinking. I do wonder though if the number of high emissions cars isn't such that those 'low congestion lanes' would immediately become congested. Personally I don't think any kind of vehicle once approved for road-worthiness should get an advantage over other road-worthy vehicles. Especially not if it ends up being a wealth inequality thing in disguise.
eesmith 3y ago
Which cities are doing this which don't have good mass transit options as one of the "or something" ways to get into town?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
kwhitefoot 3y ago
In 1965 in the UK average annual income was about 750 GBP [1]. A medium priced car was about 700 GBP [2]. Sounds pretty similar to the situation you describe today. I suspect that in the countries where annual income is only 15 kEUR now that in 1965 hardly anyone could afford a car at all. At least in the UK the reason people can't afford a car might have more to do with the price of housing reducing their disposable income. [1] https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/ukearncpi/result2.php https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/ukearncpi/result2.ph... [2] https://www.retrowow.co.uk/transport/60s/motoring/60s_cars_cost.php https://www.retrowow.co.uk/transport/60s/motoring/60s_cars_c...
- vdaea 3y ago
  What exactly is the argument here? That since in 1965 people could barely afford a car it's okay if now we've regressed to the point where 60 years later people can now again barely afford a car?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    The argument is that from a purchasing power perspective the price of cars in Europe has been more-or-less constant over the years. I think that they've gone up a bit, actually, but you get a lot more car for your money now than you did in the 60's and the 70's. Those cars were death traps, high maintenance and roadside breakdowns were very common.
    - vdaea 3y ago
      Which is not true since car prices have dramatically risen these last years.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Prices in an absolute sense will always rise, especially when inflation is high but you have to compensate for purchasing power, wages and so on. Effectively, from today to 1970 the price of cars has probably dropped in terms of what you get for your money and that includes 'these last years'. When looking at EVs it is true that they are still more expensive, but then again, they didn't exist at all back in the 70's so we can't really compare, and as volumes ramp up the price will come down. The bigger issue will be to match growing grid capacity to growing number of EVs because if those too get too far out of phase there won't be enough power available in some locations.

by vdaea 3y ago

iknowstuff 3y ago

Turns out cars don’t belong in cities, so efforts are made to undo the damage of 1960s car centric urban planning. That includes disincentivizing car ownership in cities in favor of bike lanes and transit. https://m.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes https://m.youtube.com/c/notjustbikes has some great content about the issue. TLDR: too much space wasted, too many deaths, too much noise, pollution, unpleasant neighborhoods, never-ending traffic leading to hours of labor wasted, lower tax base due to parking, sprawl, higher healthcare costs, lower access to services, extremely expensive infrastructure, etc

vdaea 3y ago
[flagged]
- iknowstuff 3y ago
  Feel free to construct a cohesive argument

nemo44x 3y ago

It’s funny how poor people are always the victims in these schemes. In the USA many places let people in electric cars ,that mainly only rich people could afford, into the carpool lanes so they could travel without congestion. Of course the poor bastard in the 16 year old beater had to sit in traffic as they traveled to their second low paying job. If anything we should let high emissions cars access to low congestion lanes so they spend less time polluting.

qball 3y ago
>It’s funny how poor people are always the victims in these schemes. Working as intended.
Gibbon1 3y ago
It's worse than that. If you're rich you can pay to use the 'car pool' lane to get down to the googleplex.
jacquesm 3y ago
> If anything we should let high emissions cars access to low congestion lanes so they spend less time polluting. That's excellent thinking. I do wonder though if the number of high emissions cars isn't such that those 'low congestion lanes' would immediately become congested. Personally I don't think any kind of vehicle once approved for road-worthiness should get an advantage over other road-worthy vehicles. Especially not if it ends up being a wealth inequality thing in disguise.

eesmith 3y ago

Which cities are doing this which don't have good mass transit options as one of the "or something" ways to get into town?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kwhitefoot 3y ago

In 1965 in the UK average annual income was about 750 GBP [1]. A medium priced car was about 700 GBP [2]. Sounds pretty similar to the situation you describe today. I suspect that in the countries where annual income is only 15 kEUR now that in 1965 hardly anyone could afford a car at all. At least in the UK the reason people can't afford a car might have more to do with the price of housing reducing their disposable income. [1] https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/ukearncpi/result2.php https://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/ukearncpi/result2.ph... [2] https://www.retrowow.co.uk/transport/60s/motoring/60s_cars_cost.php https://www.retrowow.co.uk/transport/60s/motoring/60s_cars_c...

vdaea 3y ago
What exactly is the argument here? That since in 1965 people could barely afford a car it's okay if now we've regressed to the point where 60 years later people can now again barely afford a car?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The argument is that from a purchasing power perspective the price of cars in Europe has been more-or-less constant over the years. I think that they've gone up a bit, actually, but you get a lot more car for your money now than you did in the 60's and the 70's. Those cars were death traps, high maintenance and roadside breakdowns were very common.
  - vdaea 3y ago
    Which is not true since car prices have dramatically risen these last years.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Prices in an absolute sense will always rise, especially when inflation is high but you have to compensate for purchasing power, wages and so on. Effectively, from today to 1970 the price of cars has probably dropped in terms of what you get for your money and that includes 'these last years'. When looking at EVs it is true that they are still more expensive, but then again, they didn't exist at all back in the 70's so we can't really compare, and as volumes ramp up the price will come down. The bigger issue will be to match growing grid capacity to growing number of EVs because if those too get too far out of phase there won't be enough power available in some locations.