4 ms·

Meanwhile, in an effort to control traffic congestion, certain US states are building privately owned toll roads, which siphon away maintenance taxes that could

by tomrod 3y ago

Meanwhile, in an effort to control traffic congestion, certain US states are building privately owned toll roads, which siphon away maintenance taxes that could benefit local road repair.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
We've had this in Ontario for over a couple decades in the form of the 407, which has eye watering tolls that I don't think any Americans can understand (certainly Google maps doesn't, as it suggests navigation routes on it just to save 2 or 3 minutes, but which cost $40, $50 CAD). It's owned by Spanish consortium, and was sold by a previous conservative gov't for a fraction of what it's made in profit, since.
- btbuildem 3y ago
  It boggles the mind that the crooks that sold it walk free today.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    The current premier's dad was in that gov't. Ontario don't care, it seems. Canadians just bend over and take it. Around here (Flamborough, outside of Hamilton/Burlington) there's a whole layer of people who rant and rant and rant about being amalgamated into Hamilton. Except those same people who rant about it, are almost all conservative voters. And it was the conservatives under Harris who forced that amalgamation. It boggles the mind, the short memory people have.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      What's pretty wild is that even though you can later uncover the corruption the deals are allowed to stand. When in fact all of the participants should end up in jail with their assets forfeited.
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        In general this is never spoken of as corruption here. Not in mainstream discourse anyways. It's spoken of as a "bad deal", but the "C" word isn't really deployed. In the early/mid-90s recessionary period when this was inked, the justification was excessively high debts incurred by the previous provincial gov't. Austerity was the name of the game, and decisions like these were seen as "wise fiscal management." Those debts now look minor compared to the present, and we'd have been in much better fiscal situation keeping the toll road public and letting that money flow back.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  That sounds like what the City of Chicago did with their parking enforcement rights. They sold a 75 year contract to metered spaces for 1.5 billion dollars in 2008. Currently there have been 2 billion in revenue, and there are 60 years remaining on the contract...
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    "TORONTO, Feb. 16, 2023 /CNW/ - 407 International Inc. (the "Company") announced today revenues of $1,327.2 million for 2022, compared to $1,023.1 million for 2021. " So about 1 billion USD annual revenue per year. 99 year lease. The government of the time sold the lease rights for $3.1 billion CAD. So about $5 billion in today's dollars, about $3.7B USD.
    - abduhl 3y ago
      Here's the remainder of that headline: >> TORONTO, Feb. 16, 2023 /CNW/ - 407 International Inc. (the "Company") announced today revenues of $1,327.2 million for 2022, compared to $1,023.1 million for 2021. The Company reported net income of $435.3 million for 2022, compared to a net income of $212.4 million for 2021. Earnings before interest and other, taxes, depreciation and amortization ("EBITDA"1) totalled $1,138.8 million for 2022 compared to $859.0 million for 2021. Per https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/ https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculat..., $3.1 billion in 1999 is about $5.26 billion today. So, in 2022 the consortium had an income of about 8.5% of what they paid. Not nearly as good as your numbers imply. The consortium is making back what they paid every 10-15 years, so over a 99 year lease they'll make something like a 600%-700% return on their investment. That's not great. And they shoulder the risk of collapsing toll revenue.
- chollida1 3y ago
  > It's owned by Spanish consortium, and was sold by a previous conservative gov't for a fraction of what it's made in profit, since. It's actually majority owned by CPP( Canadian Pension Plan). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#:~:text=As%20of%20August%202022%20and,Spanish%20firm%20Ferrovial%20S.A.%2043.23%25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#:~:text=As... > Indirectly owned subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01% Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23%
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Indirectly owned subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01%[36][37] Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23%[36][37] SNC Lavalin 6.76%[36] But the original lease sale was far more skewed: "The Ontario corporation, known as 407 International Inc., was initially owned by the Spanish multinational Ferrovial through their subsidiary Cintra Infraestructuras (61.3%), the Montreal-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin (22.6%) as well as CDP Capital (16.1%)"
- kjs3 3y ago
  "and was sold by a previous conservative gov't for a fraction of what it's made in profit, since" It doesn't usually make sense to buy something in order to break even.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Well, duh, the point is that it's the public that lost out. The government could be making those revenues instead, and re-investing them in infrastructure.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      And Canada has infrastructure issues galore so they really needed that money. Short term gain, long term massive loss.
    - kjs3 3y ago
      Unless they can't. And unless one takes the time to actually understand the circumstances under which the asset was privatized, you have no idea whether that's the case. But golly gee it's a whole lot easier to take the intellectually shallow path of "how dare a company make more money than I think they should" and avoid all that messy 'research' and 'understanding'. Duh.
      - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
        Drop the bullshit smear. I was around and voting in that era, and I understand it well. I question whether you were, though.
        kjs3 3y ago
        "If I throw shade at you, it's because I'm your elder and better. If you return the favour, it's an unconscionable smear and you're a juvenile". Classy...should I get off your lawn too? There are tons of thin skinned old people just like you who vote, think their minimally informed preconceived notions are 'understanding' and don't want to know about inconvenient facts. I stopped pulling the 'older makes me better than you' shtick in my 40's, and that was a long time ago.
infecto 3y ago
Can you provide examples of the states and how this siphons away taxes? Curious to understand the mechanics of it.
- tomrod 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United... Also, from boots on the ground in North Texas, parts of NTTA-proposed systems were won by Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte in the early 2000s. Parts have been built, but it didn't complete by its 2015 target date. https://journalrecord.com/2004/12/spanish-firm-to-build-6-billion-private-texas-toll-road/ https://journalrecord.com/2004/12/spanish-firm-to-build-6-bi... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cintra_Infraestructuras https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cintra_Infraestructuras
  - infecto 3y ago
    I drive on Texas toll roads quite often. I don't follow how they take the tax revenue away. While there definitely has been failed projects but I am curious if this method of infrarstructure takes money out of the tax coffers? A private business foots a massive infrarstructure bill with its own risks with and turns over the road after N number of years. Has anyone run the math to see if these projects are net winners/losers for the state?
    - tomrod 3y ago
      See table A-2, about a 20% margin for NTTA despite COVID impacting how much people were driving. https://www.ntta.org/whatwedo/fin_invest_info/Documents/2022/SAnnualCFR-Report2021.pdf https://www.ntta.org/whatwedo/fin_invest_info/Documents/2022...
      - infecto 3y ago
        Thanks!

by tomrod 3y ago

Meanwhile, in an effort to control traffic congestion, certain US states are building privately owned toll roads, which siphon away maintenance taxes that could benefit local road repair.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

We've had this in Ontario for over a couple decades in the form of the 407, which has eye watering tolls that I don't think any Americans can understand (certainly Google maps doesn't, as it suggests navigation routes on it just to save 2 or 3 minutes, but which cost $40, $50 CAD). It's owned by Spanish consortium, and was sold by a previous conservative gov't for a fraction of what it's made in profit, since.

btbuildem 3y ago
It boggles the mind that the crooks that sold it walk free today.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  The current premier's dad was in that gov't. Ontario don't care, it seems. Canadians just bend over and take it. Around here (Flamborough, outside of Hamilton/Burlington) there's a whole layer of people who rant and rant and rant about being amalgamated into Hamilton. Except those same people who rant about it, are almost all conservative voters. And it was the conservatives under Harris who forced that amalgamation. It boggles the mind, the short memory people have.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    What's pretty wild is that even though you can later uncover the corruption the deals are allowed to stand. When in fact all of the participants should end up in jail with their assets forfeited.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      In general this is never spoken of as corruption here. Not in mainstream discourse anyways. It's spoken of as a "bad deal", but the "C" word isn't really deployed. In the early/mid-90s recessionary period when this was inked, the justification was excessively high debts incurred by the previous provincial gov't. Austerity was the name of the game, and decisions like these were seen as "wise fiscal management." Those debts now look minor compared to the present, and we'd have been in much better fiscal situation keeping the toll road public and letting that money flow back.
dghlsakjg 3y ago
That sounds like what the City of Chicago did with their parking enforcement rights. They sold a 75 year contract to metered spaces for 1.5 billion dollars in 2008. Currently there have been 2 billion in revenue, and there are 60 years remaining on the contract...
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  "TORONTO, Feb. 16, 2023 /CNW/ - 407 International Inc. (the "Company") announced today revenues of $1,327.2 million for 2022, compared to $1,023.1 million for 2021. " So about 1 billion USD annual revenue per year. 99 year lease. The government of the time sold the lease rights for $3.1 billion CAD. So about $5 billion in today's dollars, about $3.7B USD.
  - abduhl 3y ago
    Here's the remainder of that headline: >> TORONTO, Feb. 16, 2023 /CNW/ - 407 International Inc. (the "Company") announced today revenues of $1,327.2 million for 2022, compared to $1,023.1 million for 2021. The Company reported net income of $435.3 million for 2022, compared to a net income of $212.4 million for 2021. Earnings before interest and other, taxes, depreciation and amortization ("EBITDA"1) totalled $1,138.8 million for 2022 compared to $859.0 million for 2021. Per https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/ https://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculat..., $3.1 billion in 1999 is about $5.26 billion today. So, in 2022 the consortium had an income of about 8.5% of what they paid. Not nearly as good as your numbers imply. The consortium is making back what they paid every 10-15 years, so over a 99 year lease they'll make something like a 600%-700% return on their investment. That's not great. And they shoulder the risk of collapsing toll revenue.
chollida1 3y ago
> It's owned by Spanish consortium, and was sold by a previous conservative gov't for a fraction of what it's made in profit, since. It's actually majority owned by CPP( Canadian Pension Plan). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#:~:text=As%20of%20August%202022%20and,Spanish%20firm%20Ferrovial%20S.A.%2043.23%25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407#:~:text=As... > Indirectly owned subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01% Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23%
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Indirectly owned subsidiaries of Canada Pension Plan Investment Board 50.01%[36][37] Cintra Global S.E., a subsidiary of Spanish firm Ferrovial S.A. 43.23%[36][37] SNC Lavalin 6.76%[36] But the original lease sale was far more skewed: "The Ontario corporation, known as 407 International Inc., was initially owned by the Spanish multinational Ferrovial through their subsidiary Cintra Infraestructuras (61.3%), the Montreal-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin (22.6%) as well as CDP Capital (16.1%)"
kjs3 3y ago
"and was sold by a previous conservative gov't for a fraction of what it's made in profit, since" It doesn't usually make sense to buy something in order to break even.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Well, duh, the point is that it's the public that lost out. The government could be making those revenues instead, and re-investing them in infrastructure.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    And Canada has infrastructure issues galore so they really needed that money. Short term gain, long term massive loss.
  - kjs3 3y ago
    Unless they can't. And unless one takes the time to actually understand the circumstances under which the asset was privatized, you have no idea whether that's the case. But golly gee it's a whole lot easier to take the intellectually shallow path of "how dare a company make more money than I think they should" and avoid all that messy 'research' and 'understanding'. Duh.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      Drop the bullshit smear. I was around and voting in that era, and I understand it well. I question whether you were, though.
      - kjs3 3y ago
        "If I throw shade at you, it's because I'm your elder and better. If you return the favour, it's an unconscionable smear and you're a juvenile". Classy...should I get off your lawn too? There are tons of thin skinned old people just like you who vote, think their minimally informed preconceived notions are 'understanding' and don't want to know about inconvenient facts. I stopped pulling the 'older makes me better than you' shtick in my 40's, and that was a long time ago.

infecto 3y ago

Can you provide examples of the states and how this siphons away taxes? Curious to understand the mechanics of it.

tomrod 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United... Also, from boots on the ground in North Texas, parts of NTTA-proposed systems were won by Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte in the early 2000s. Parts have been built, but it didn't complete by its 2015 target date. https://journalrecord.com/2004/12/spanish-firm-to-build-6-billion-private-texas-toll-road/ https://journalrecord.com/2004/12/spanish-firm-to-build-6-bi... https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cintra_Infraestructuras https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cintra_Infraestructuras
- infecto 3y ago
  I drive on Texas toll roads quite often. I don't follow how they take the tax revenue away. While there definitely has been failed projects but I am curious if this method of infrarstructure takes money out of the tax coffers? A private business foots a massive infrarstructure bill with its own risks with and turns over the road after N number of years. Has anyone run the math to see if these projects are net winners/losers for the state?
  - tomrod 3y ago
    See table A-2, about a 20% margin for NTTA despite COVID impacting how much people were driving. https://www.ntta.org/whatwedo/fin_invest_info/Documents/2022/SAnnualCFR-Report2021.pdf https://www.ntta.org/whatwedo/fin_invest_info/Documents/2022...
    - infecto 3y ago
      Thanks!