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> capitalism is bringing international relations to pre WWI levels And how exactly does it do that? Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and p

by nickpp 3y ago

> capitalism is bringing international relations to pre WWI levels And how exactly does it do that? Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity and thus making thugs like Putin envious and hungry for conquest? Hmm maybe you have a point.

medo-bear 3y ago
> And how exactly does it do that? By seeking a monopoly on resources > Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity TOO MUCH LOOOL
- nickpp 3y ago
  > By seeking a monopoly on resources How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? > TOO MUCH LOOOL Absolutely. Eastern Europeans are now in the EU and we have freedom of movement, expression and to work anywhere we wish. During communism machine guns and barbed wire kept us locked down so we wouldn’t escape its wonders. Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. It’s night and day, you can’t even imagine it unless you’ve lived it . Of course all Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) vigorously rejects any closeness to Russia and its ilk. Of course an authoritarian like Putin was furious and did the only thing he could think of: war, murder and genocide.
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    > How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. Moreover, it is a generally well known economic principle that capitalism entails cyclical crisis periods for self correction. Usual way to deal with it is debt and expansion of markets. Debt levels today are unprecedented while there are no significant new markets to expand into (China and Eastern Europe including Russia are already absorbed into the market). Raw materials (including fresh water and air) are more valuable than ever. > Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. Huge part of personal wealth in Eastern Europe is actually a relic of socialist times - housing. Eastern European countries have by far the highest rate of home ownership as a result of socialism. In the developed world, China is the leader of home ownership rates. You do know that 80s were quite unpleasant everywhere? In the decades prior USSR was outperforming the US economically. Also Yugoslavia, a socialist country outside the Iron Curtain, had a better living standard than some countries in Western Europe prior to 1980s. This is actually quite an achivement given how devestated and underdeveloped the region was following WWII and no Marshal Plan to help. Anyway, I actually live in Eastern Europe. It is a great place to live in, but it is not economically prosperous. A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list (I know many people who live 30 mins away from ski slopes but the majority can hardly afford ski passes) and live a very spartan lifestyle. Russia also has plenty of rich people taking holidays and driving expensive cars, but a great majority of Russians certainly cannot afford those things. While we are at it, look at how many Chinese tourists there are. In most expensive Western cities (eg. Sydney) property purchases by Chinese have driven property prices up significantly. But none of that means anything. Plenty of people from Eastern Europe still want to emigrate. Birth rates are decreasing every year because it is very hard for young families to purchase their own home (see for the situation in Poland [0]). And whats more, there are plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic for old times due to social security it provided (again see Poland [1]). [0] https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330/8686791,the-vicious-circles-of-housing-in-poland.html https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps:... [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330
    - nickpp 3y ago
      > Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Any economic system can do that. But with free markets a fair price is reached and healthy competition encouraged. Of course most governments will create monopolies instead. > generally well known economic principle Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? > housing Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. > USSR was outperforming the US economically USSR was starving. USA had to send grains to avoid starvation - Kansas became Russia's bread basket. When the Berlin wall fell the stores in the East had empty shelves while the ones in the West presented the usual bonanza of products and options. > A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list Of course not everybody has everything. But the per-capita GDP is inching closer to the West while Purchasing Power will soon be at parity. Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. > plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited.
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        Capitalism means competion, which means strong eat weak. If someone has what you need to survive, you eat them (figuratively speaking haha). On scale of state actors, this means war. Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources. I belive that slowly we are reaching that stage of culture as humans where we will collectively realize that this is the only way to survive without war famine etc, just as our relationship with nature and environment is beggining to take on forms of collective responsibility. > Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? How about the GFC, which is still being felt today. > Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (i personally find brutalist architecture aesthetically appealing), what you say about structural quality of socialist housing is very wrong. In fact, given the prevelance of reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. For socialist construction withstanding earthquakes see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake Anyway the point is, people in Eastern Europe can relax in ways that would make many people in the West jealous - ie they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Or worst, kiss bank managers bums to get a home loan approved. Owning a home is as real a wealth as it comes. > Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. The economic growth rate of socialist block of countries was double that of the West, until 1980s. The difference being that socialist block excelled at heavy industry and strategic development. They had major problems with light industry (hence the shortages in convenience sotres). On the other hand, economic development in Eastern Europe today is driven largely by outsourcing of labour from the West, and many heavy industries had to be closed because Western bosses didn't want competition. The reason why companies from the West go to Eastern Europe has alot to do with the level of education of labour force in Eastern Europe. And guess what system is responsible for said levels of education ... :) My belief is that socialism in eastern europe sucked big time. However to ignore some of its benefits is simply stupid. If we can learn well from history we are in a better place as humans to build a better world for all humans. Otherwise we will descend into war and barbarism, where we find ourselves at the moment. The key difference between the situation preceding WWI and today is the presence of nuclear weapons. Even trench warfare has made a comeback. > They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited. Maybe they also miss their generous anual leave, work rights, and 36 hour work week.

by nickpp 3y ago

medo-bear 3y ago

> And how exactly does it do that? By seeking a monopoly on resources > Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity TOO MUCH LOOOL

nickpp 3y ago
> By seeking a monopoly on resources How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? > TOO MUCH LOOOL Absolutely. Eastern Europeans are now in the EU and we have freedom of movement, expression and to work anywhere we wish. During communism machine guns and barbed wire kept us locked down so we wouldn’t escape its wonders. Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. It’s night and day, you can’t even imagine it unless you’ve lived it . Of course all Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) vigorously rejects any closeness to Russia and its ilk. Of course an authoritarian like Putin was furious and did the only thing he could think of: war, murder and genocide.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  > How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. Moreover, it is a generally well known economic principle that capitalism entails cyclical crisis periods for self correction. Usual way to deal with it is debt and expansion of markets. Debt levels today are unprecedented while there are no significant new markets to expand into (China and Eastern Europe including Russia are already absorbed into the market). Raw materials (including fresh water and air) are more valuable than ever. > Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. Huge part of personal wealth in Eastern Europe is actually a relic of socialist times - housing. Eastern European countries have by far the highest rate of home ownership as a result of socialism. In the developed world, China is the leader of home ownership rates. You do know that 80s were quite unpleasant everywhere? In the decades prior USSR was outperforming the US economically. Also Yugoslavia, a socialist country outside the Iron Curtain, had a better living standard than some countries in Western Europe prior to 1980s. This is actually quite an achivement given how devestated and underdeveloped the region was following WWII and no Marshal Plan to help. Anyway, I actually live in Eastern Europe. It is a great place to live in, but it is not economically prosperous. A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list (I know many people who live 30 mins away from ski slopes but the majority can hardly afford ski passes) and live a very spartan lifestyle. Russia also has plenty of rich people taking holidays and driving expensive cars, but a great majority of Russians certainly cannot afford those things. While we are at it, look at how many Chinese tourists there are. In most expensive Western cities (eg. Sydney) property purchases by Chinese have driven property prices up significantly. But none of that means anything. Plenty of people from Eastern Europe still want to emigrate. Birth rates are decreasing every year because it is very hard for young families to purchase their own home (see for the situation in Poland [0]). And whats more, there are plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic for old times due to social security it provided (again see Poland [1]). [0] https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330/8686791,the-vicious-circles-of-housing-in-poland.html https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps:... [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330
  - nickpp 3y ago
    > Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Any economic system can do that. But with free markets a fair price is reached and healthy competition encouraged. Of course most governments will create monopolies instead. > generally well known economic principle Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? > housing Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. > USSR was outperforming the US economically USSR was starving. USA had to send grains to avoid starvation - Kansas became Russia's bread basket. When the Berlin wall fell the stores in the East had empty shelves while the ones in the West presented the usual bonanza of products and options. > A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list Of course not everybody has everything. But the per-capita GDP is inching closer to the West while Purchasing Power will soon be at parity. Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. > plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      Capitalism means competion, which means strong eat weak. If someone has what you need to survive, you eat them (figuratively speaking haha). On scale of state actors, this means war. Socialism, on the other hand, means rational and planned distribution of resources. I belive that slowly we are reaching that stage of culture as humans where we will collectively realize that this is the only way to survive without war famine etc, just as our relationship with nature and environment is beggining to take on forms of collective responsibility. > Do you have actual examples where this happened recently or are you just talking general ideas here? How about the GFC, which is still being felt today. > Do you mean the gray long apartment blighting the cities across Eastern Europe? Ugly, unventilated and insulated and ready to fall at the first earthquake they would be simply illegal to build today. The only reason they still keep "their value" is that we managed to overregulated the housing market into an obvious supply-constrained corner. While beauty is in the eye of the beholder (i personally find brutalist architecture aesthetically appealing), what you say about structural quality of socialist housing is very wrong. In fact, given the prevelance of reinforced concrete in socialist construction, structurally they are better and more earthquake resistant than many modern buildings. For socialist construction withstanding earthquakes see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Zagreb_earthquake Anyway the point is, people in Eastern Europe can relax in ways that would make many people in the West jealous - ie they dont have to kiss their bosses' bums to pay off their mortgage and keep their homes. Or worst, kiss bank managers bums to get a home loan approved. Owning a home is as real a wealth as it comes. > Eastern Europe's growth rate after the fall of communism beat the West's. The economic growth rate of socialist block of countries was double that of the West, until 1980s. The difference being that socialist block excelled at heavy industry and strategic development. They had major problems with light industry (hence the shortages in convenience sotres). On the other hand, economic development in Eastern Europe today is driven largely by outsourcing of labour from the West, and many heavy industries had to be closed because Western bosses didn't want competition. The reason why companies from the West go to Eastern Europe has alot to do with the level of education of labour force in Eastern Europe. And guess what system is responsible for said levels of education ... :) My belief is that socialism in eastern europe sucked big time. However to ignore some of its benefits is simply stupid. If we can learn well from history we are in a better place as humans to build a better world for all humans. Otherwise we will descend into war and barbarism, where we find ourselves at the moment. The key difference between the situation preceding WWI and today is the presence of nuclear weapons. Even trench warfare has made a comeback. > They are nostalgic for their youth. Plus they are retirees and their work created little economic value during communism so their pensions are appropriately limited. Maybe they also miss their generous anual leave, work rights, and 36 hour work week.