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> if nobody had to worry about fundamental issues like shelter, food, basic transportation, education and so on unfortunately, the people who are able to make

> if nobody had to worry about fundamental issues like shelter, food, basic transportation, education and so on unfortunately, the people who are able to make this a reality tomorrow also hold to a strange viewpoint: they truly believe that, in the absence of some pressure, a person who has their basic needs provided will ultimately venture to do nothing completely failing to see the greatest irony of their belief, that even doing nothing would arguably be a better life than the debt-ridden existence you mentioned...

dgb23 3y ago
This viewpoint existed (to a more extreme degree) in the 18th and 19th century too. "If we give everyone the vote then...", "If workers have protections then...", "If women had equal rights then..." etc. It's interesting how stubbornly this false and negative image of humanity has persisted even though every time we made progress the opposite was found to be true. Yes, we are lazy, greedy and dumb. But we are also disciplined, helpful and smart to a much higher degree. Not because someone holds a whip, but because we just want to. We should maybe stop optimizing society to cater to the few people (or circumstances) where this isn't the case.
- keester 3y ago
  Of course not everyone gets the vote. Not everyone gets the worker protections or can be women with equal rights, as you put it. The issue here is not if we should provide these things but actually to provide them to as many people as possible. Sadly, people think we can just agree to do it or something and it magically happens. My take is move slowly. Anyone who doesn't food and housing, try to make that happen for them as best we can. That's different than just decreeing from on high that ALL PEOPLE SHALL HAVE HOUSING!!
scruple 3y ago
> they truly believe that, in the absence of some pressure, a person who has their basic needs provided will ultimately venture to do nothing. They might venture to not work for the 5 richest men for starters. And we just can't have that happening now, can we?
deepfriedchokes 3y ago
A little bit of suffering drives growth, too much and things start to decline. If you go work out at the gym your muscles will grow, but if you fatigue them to an extreme you’ll get rhabdo and they’ll start to break down. We’re at a point where the majority of humanity is struggling with cost of living while others live in excess at their expense. This will cause species level decline if we don’t fix it. Capitalism is abusive and exploitative; it abuses people and the environment to feed itself. It is a vampire. If humanity is going to survive we need to start acknowledging Capitalism for what it is: abuse!
- jareklupinski 3y ago
  > A little bit of suffering drives growth i think if we hope to finally achieve our species' true might and leave biology behind, we have to question whether this too may be a fallacy thermodynamics has the rest of the universe; maybe we can squeeze out of it?

dgb23 3y ago

This viewpoint existed (to a more extreme degree) in the 18th and 19th century too. "If we give everyone the vote then...", "If workers have protections then...", "If women had equal rights then..." etc. It's interesting how stubbornly this false and negative image of humanity has persisted even though every time we made progress the opposite was found to be true. Yes, we are lazy, greedy and dumb. But we are also disciplined, helpful and smart to a much higher degree. Not because someone holds a whip, but because we just want to. We should maybe stop optimizing society to cater to the few people (or circumstances) where this isn't the case.

keester 3y ago
Of course not everyone gets the vote. Not everyone gets the worker protections or can be women with equal rights, as you put it. The issue here is not if we should provide these things but actually to provide them to as many people as possible. Sadly, people think we can just agree to do it or something and it magically happens. My take is move slowly. Anyone who doesn't food and housing, try to make that happen for them as best we can. That's different than just decreeing from on high that ALL PEOPLE SHALL HAVE HOUSING!!

scruple 3y ago

> they truly believe that, in the absence of some pressure, a person who has their basic needs provided will ultimately venture to do nothing. They might venture to not work for the 5 richest men for starters. And we just can't have that happening now, can we?

deepfriedchokes 3y ago

A little bit of suffering drives growth, too much and things start to decline. If you go work out at the gym your muscles will grow, but if you fatigue them to an extreme you’ll get rhabdo and they’ll start to break down. We’re at a point where the majority of humanity is struggling with cost of living while others live in excess at their expense. This will cause species level decline if we don’t fix it. Capitalism is abusive and exploitative; it abuses people and the environment to feed itself. It is a vampire. If humanity is going to survive we need to start acknowledging Capitalism for what it is: abuse!

jareklupinski 3y ago
> A little bit of suffering drives growth i think if we hope to finally achieve our species' true might and leave biology behind, we have to question whether this too may be a fallacy thermodynamics has the rest of the universe; maybe we can squeeze out of it?