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> I totally fail to understand why this is a polarizing issue Because for most people (especially in the US), this is emotional. As soon as you start talking a

by hnarn 3y ago

> I totally fail to understand why this is a polarizing issue Because for most people (especially in the US), this is emotional. As soon as you start talking about “taxing the rich” many people have a prepared inventory of feelings that get activated, and these feelings are telling them that even if I’m not rich, I could be some day, and this isn’t right. If you want an example of the almost religious cult of personality around people with immense wealth, look no further than the people simping for Elon. The idea goes that surely these people are special, there’s a reason they have so much money, and by taking their money we'll accomplish nothing except crucifying these inventors that humankind relies upon. Entire books (or perhaps libraries) have been written on the subject of the routines and life patterns of extremely rich people. They’re not like us.

rocgf 3y ago
I definitely believe that wealthy people should be taxed at similar or higher levels than the average middle class employee, and I am definitely not some Elon fanatic. With that said, I do think that there is a reason they have so much money and that they are inventors that are pushing the boundaries. I don't understand why people refuse to accept that some people are smarter, work harder, think at a grander scale.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Does that make them deserve to also be your Lords? Because this is what is happening in practice.
  - rocgf 3y ago
    Obviously not. As I said, I think taxation for anyone making say 500k+ should be comparable percentage-wise with any regular employee. That is indeed happening in practice, through the influence that money gives them, though not sure how this argument fits into the discussion.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > work harder When's the last time you've done manual labor full time? I'm so tired of this "hard work" meme. The hardest job I've ever had was to stack shampoo bottles in boxes for shipping. After 8 hours of that, I had to curl up in the fetal position. And the job paid crap. I also don't believe that Elon Musk is smarter than the engineers who work for him and make nearly infinitely less money. In any case he's certainly not orders of magnitude smarter.
  - rocgf 3y ago
    I see this argument frequently and I never could understand quite where it's coming from. Throwing manual labor into the conversation is disingenuous since nobody would ever make the argument that some tech billionaire has a harder working life than someone shovelling gravel 16h per day. It's obvious that's not what anyone means, so why even point this out? Elon Musk may not be "smarter" than the engineers who work for him, but then why didn't they start a company like Tesla? The argument for Elon's success is built into the results themselves. There's no going around that, without serious mental gymnastics.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > nobody would ever make the argument > It's obvious that's not what anyone means I disagree. Citation needed. Regardless of what other people mean by "hard work", what exactly do you mean by it, and how exactly do the wealthy work harder than everyone else? > why didn't they start a company like Tesla Musk technically didn't "start" Tesla, but anyway there are several reasons. For example: 1) They didn't have the capital. Musk himself didn't have the capital to invest in Tesla or SpaceX until several previous businesses were acquired by bigger businesses. eBay acquiring PayPal was the big one. 2) They didn't want to? The smartest people in the world tend not to be motivated primarily by money and greed. Also note that Musk started out working on websites and financial services, which is how he made his initial capital, but that wouldn't necessarily interest auto or space engineers. Remember that Steve Jobs made most of his wealth from Pixar and selling it to Disney rather than from Apple. Was Steve Jobs "smart"? Sure, but WTF did Steve Jobs know about making films in 1986? Nothing. He was just a rich dude with some capital to invest. Why didn't some indie filmmaker become a billionaire instead? Because indie filmmakers don't have the capital.
soerxpso 3y ago
"We should squander the rights of a group of people so that we can have more things!" "I disagree. I think that we should not do that, as it is morally wrong." "You fool! Don't you understand that it's not your rights that would be squandered?! It's only the rights of people who are not like us!"

by hnarn 3y ago

rocgf 3y ago

I definitely believe that wealthy people should be taxed at similar or higher levels than the average middle class employee, and I am definitely not some Elon fanatic. With that said, I do think that there is a reason they have so much money and that they are inventors that are pushing the boundaries. I don't understand why people refuse to accept that some people are smarter, work harder, think at a grander scale.

actionfromafar 3y ago
Does that make them deserve to also be your Lords? Because this is what is happening in practice.
- rocgf 3y ago
  Obviously not. As I said, I think taxation for anyone making say 500k+ should be comparable percentage-wise with any regular employee. That is indeed happening in practice, through the influence that money gives them, though not sure how this argument fits into the discussion.
lapcat 3y ago
> work harder When's the last time you've done manual labor full time? I'm so tired of this "hard work" meme. The hardest job I've ever had was to stack shampoo bottles in boxes for shipping. After 8 hours of that, I had to curl up in the fetal position. And the job paid crap. I also don't believe that Elon Musk is smarter than the engineers who work for him and make nearly infinitely less money. In any case he's certainly not orders of magnitude smarter.
- rocgf 3y ago
  I see this argument frequently and I never could understand quite where it's coming from. Throwing manual labor into the conversation is disingenuous since nobody would ever make the argument that some tech billionaire has a harder working life than someone shovelling gravel 16h per day. It's obvious that's not what anyone means, so why even point this out? Elon Musk may not be "smarter" than the engineers who work for him, but then why didn't they start a company like Tesla? The argument for Elon's success is built into the results themselves. There's no going around that, without serious mental gymnastics.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > nobody would ever make the argument > It's obvious that's not what anyone means I disagree. Citation needed. Regardless of what other people mean by "hard work", what exactly do you mean by it, and how exactly do the wealthy work harder than everyone else? > why didn't they start a company like Tesla Musk technically didn't "start" Tesla, but anyway there are several reasons. For example: 1) They didn't have the capital. Musk himself didn't have the capital to invest in Tesla or SpaceX until several previous businesses were acquired by bigger businesses. eBay acquiring PayPal was the big one. 2) They didn't want to? The smartest people in the world tend not to be motivated primarily by money and greed. Also note that Musk started out working on websites and financial services, which is how he made his initial capital, but that wouldn't necessarily interest auto or space engineers. Remember that Steve Jobs made most of his wealth from Pixar and selling it to Disney rather than from Apple. Was Steve Jobs "smart"? Sure, but WTF did Steve Jobs know about making films in 1986? Nothing. He was just a rich dude with some capital to invest. Why didn't some indie filmmaker become a billionaire instead? Because indie filmmakers don't have the capital.

soerxpso 3y ago

"We should squander the rights of a group of people so that we can have more things!" "I disagree. I think that we should not do that, as it is morally wrong." "You fool! Don't you understand that it's not your rights that would be squandered?! It's only the rights of people who are not like us!"