5 ms·

> triumph of capitalism at the expense of freedom and democracy As someone who was born on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, I can assure you capitalism, fre

by nickpp 3y ago

> triumph of capitalism at the expense of freedom and democracy As someone who was born on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, I can assure you capitalism, freedom and democracy came together while we had communism, lack of freedom and dictatorships.

medo-bear 3y ago
> As someone who was born on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain Why is there still a need to start responses in such a cliche manner. As someone who was also born there ... who cares > I can assure you capitalism, freedom and democracy Capitalism, freedom, and democracy are all seperate concepts. Capitalism seeks to maximize capital at the expense of labour time. Freedom mens nothing if you dont have the time (eaten up by labour) and capital to enjoy it. Democracy means nothing if you dont have time to be educated about policies you vote for (we have objective mass media for that). Anyway, if you want a more extreme example of freedom and democracy not equal capitalism just look at Russia and China
- nickpp 3y ago
  > who cares Most people spouting anti-capitalism rhetoric never even bothered to visit some of communism's success stories like Cuba or Venezuela, but how about living there? > Capitalism, freedom, and democracy are all seperate concepts. They come together. Capitalism gives you economic power and pulls you out of abject poverty. Together with free markets this gives you freedom. First freedom is to choose where you work and thus maximise your earning potential and free time. With free time you can educate yourself more, including about democracy. I have seen this process happening in Eastern Europe with my own eyes when switching from communism, hunger and poverty to capitalism, freedom and eventual (relative) prosperity during the 90's.
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    None of this addresses my point that capitalism is bringing international relations to pre WWI levels between great (imperialist) powers and that we are on the cusp of being dragged into another World War for (ultimately) someone else's interests. But I can see you drank the kool-aid, so it is no use repeating myself.
    - nickpp 3y ago
      > capitalism is bringing international relations to pre WWI levels And how exactly does it do that? Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity and thus making thugs like Putin envious and hungry for conquest? Hmm maybe you have a point.
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        > And how exactly does it do that? By seeking a monopoly on resources > Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity TOO MUCH LOOOL
        nickpp 3y ago
        > By seeking a monopoly on resources How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? > TOO MUCH LOOOL Absolutely. Eastern Europeans are now in the EU and we have freedom of movement, expression and to work anywhere we wish. During communism machine guns and barbed wire kept us locked down so we wouldn’t escape its wonders. Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. It’s night and day, you can’t even imagine it unless you’ve lived it . Of course all Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) vigorously rejects any closeness to Russia and its ilk. Of course an authoritarian like Putin was furious and did the only thing he could think of: war, murder and genocide.
        medo-bear 3y ago
        > How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. Moreover, it is a generally well known economic principle that capitalism entails cyclical crisis periods for self correction. Usual way to deal with it is debt and expansion of markets. Debt levels today are unprecedented while there are no significant new markets to expand into (China and Eastern Europe including Russia are already absorbed into the market). Raw materials (including fresh water and air) are more valuable than ever. > Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. Huge part of personal wealth in Eastern Europe is actually a relic of socialist times - housing. Eastern European countries have by far the highest rate of home ownership as a result of socialism. In the developed world, China is the leader of home ownership rates. You do know that 80s were quite unpleasant everywhere? In the decades prior USSR was outperforming the US economically. Also Yugoslavia, a socialist country outside the Iron Curtain, had a better living standard than some countries in Western Europe prior to 1980s. This is actually quite an achivement given how devestated and underdeveloped the region was following WWII and no Marshal Plan to help. Anyway, I actually live in Eastern Europe. It is a great place to live in, but it is not economically prosperous. A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list (I know many people who live 30 mins away from ski slopes but the majority can hardly afford ski passes) and live a very spartan lifestyle. Russia also has plenty of rich people taking holidays and driving expensive cars, but a great majority of Russians certainly cannot afford those things. While we are at it, look at how many Chinese tourists there are. In most expensive Western cities (eg. Sydney) property purchases by Chinese have driven property prices up significantly. But none of that means anything. Plenty of people from Eastern Europe still want to emigrate. Birth rates are decreasing every year because it is very hard for young families to purchase their own home (see for the situation in Poland [0]). And whats more, there are plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic for old times due to social security it provided (again see Poland [1]). [0] https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330/8686791,the-vicious-circles-of-housing-in-poland.html https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps:... [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330

by nickpp 3y ago

medo-bear 3y ago

> As someone who was born on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain Why is there still a need to start responses in such a cliche manner. As someone who was also born there ... who cares > I can assure you capitalism, freedom and democracy Capitalism, freedom, and democracy are all seperate concepts. Capitalism seeks to maximize capital at the expense of labour time. Freedom mens nothing if you dont have the time (eaten up by labour) and capital to enjoy it. Democracy means nothing if you dont have time to be educated about policies you vote for (we have objective mass media for that). Anyway, if you want a more extreme example of freedom and democracy not equal capitalism just look at Russia and China

nickpp 3y ago
> who cares Most people spouting anti-capitalism rhetoric never even bothered to visit some of communism's success stories like Cuba or Venezuela, but how about living there? > Capitalism, freedom, and democracy are all seperate concepts. They come together. Capitalism gives you economic power and pulls you out of abject poverty. Together with free markets this gives you freedom. First freedom is to choose where you work and thus maximise your earning potential and free time. With free time you can educate yourself more, including about democracy. I have seen this process happening in Eastern Europe with my own eyes when switching from communism, hunger and poverty to capitalism, freedom and eventual (relative) prosperity during the 90's.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  None of this addresses my point that capitalism is bringing international relations to pre WWI levels between great (imperialist) powers and that we are on the cusp of being dragged into another World War for (ultimately) someone else's interests. But I can see you drank the kool-aid, so it is no use repeating myself.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    > capitalism is bringing international relations to pre WWI levels And how exactly does it do that? Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity and thus making thugs like Putin envious and hungry for conquest? Hmm maybe you have a point.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      > And how exactly does it do that? By seeking a monopoly on resources > Offering Eastern European countries too much freedom and prosperity TOO MUCH LOOOL
      - nickpp 3y ago
        > By seeking a monopoly on resources How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? > TOO MUCH LOOOL Absolutely. Eastern Europeans are now in the EU and we have freedom of movement, expression and to work anywhere we wish. During communism machine guns and barbed wire kept us locked down so we wouldn’t escape its wonders. Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. It’s night and day, you can’t even imagine it unless you’ve lived it . Of course all Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) vigorously rejects any closeness to Russia and its ilk. Of course an authoritarian like Putin was furious and did the only thing he could think of: war, murder and genocide.
        medo-bear 3y ago
        > How exactly is capitalism seeking a monopoly on resources? Why? To dictate the terms of the market. How? With military. Moreover, it is a generally well known economic principle that capitalism entails cyclical crisis periods for self correction. Usual way to deal with it is debt and expansion of markets. Debt levels today are unprecedented while there are no significant new markets to expand into (China and Eastern Europe including Russia are already absorbed into the market). Raw materials (including fresh water and air) are more valuable than ever. > Financially we’ve never been better: our PIB is at an all time high and people enjoy Teslas and city breaks, ski vacations and shopping trips. Compare it to the 80's when we were cold, starving in lines for half a bread and a bottle of milk. Huge part of personal wealth in Eastern Europe is actually a relic of socialist times - housing. Eastern European countries have by far the highest rate of home ownership as a result of socialism. In the developed world, China is the leader of home ownership rates. You do know that 80s were quite unpleasant everywhere? In the decades prior USSR was outperforming the US economically. Also Yugoslavia, a socialist country outside the Iron Curtain, had a better living standard than some countries in Western Europe prior to 1980s. This is actually quite an achivement given how devestated and underdeveloped the region was following WWII and no Marshal Plan to help. Anyway, I actually live in Eastern Europe. It is a great place to live in, but it is not economically prosperous. A great majority of people certainly cannot afford things you list (I know many people who live 30 mins away from ski slopes but the majority can hardly afford ski passes) and live a very spartan lifestyle. Russia also has plenty of rich people taking holidays and driving expensive cars, but a great majority of Russians certainly cannot afford those things. While we are at it, look at how many Chinese tourists there are. In most expensive Western cities (eg. Sydney) property purchases by Chinese have driven property prices up significantly. But none of that means anything. Plenty of people from Eastern Europe still want to emigrate. Birth rates are decreasing every year because it is very hard for young families to purchase their own home (see for the situation in Poland [0]). And whats more, there are plenty of people that are still quite nostalgic for old times due to social security it provided (again see Poland [1]). [0] https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330/8686791,the-vicious-circles-of-housing-in-poland.html https://serwisy.gazetaprawna.pl/nieruchomosci/artykulyhttps:... [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pops.12330