4 ms·

Gnu Smalltalk is for writing scripts, Smalltalk in name only. It s far closer to lisp than tcl, and faster than tcl too.

pjmlp 3y ago
So I decided to update my decades old outdated knowledge about GNU Smalltalk. Last update in documentation, 2017. The JIT compiler seems to still be experimental, and no new releases in 8 years. It seems that in both cases, for a Lisp like experience, we are better off using SBCL or similar.
- SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
  Smalltalk is homoiconic, like lisp. TCL is not, just pretends to be.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    I used all those three languages in production, and know quite well the differences. You're point is completely irrelevant to the usefulness of GNU Smalltalk.
    - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
      I recommend you to reread the thread. I said that Smalltalk is far closer to Lisp than TCL, not if it more useful or less than either.
  - lispm 3y ago
    Interesting. So we can compute source code! What's the equivalent of this: take code and double the numbers in it, then execute it: CL-USER 33 > (eval (mapcar (lambda (atom) (typecase atom (number (expt atom 2)) (t atom))) (cons '* (list 3 4 5)))) 3600
  - kazinator 3y ago
    Homoiconic refers to parts of a program (such as functions) being stored in source code form (or some tokenized form close to source code). This was coined in the TRAC project in the 1960's. homo = same, icon = representation. The POSIX shell is homoiconic because you can list the function definitions, and copy and paste them to redefine them. (Similarly to how the TRAC language supposedly allowed definitions to be recalled an edited.) ANSI Common Lisp has an optional feature for obtaining the definition of a function in textual form. For that to work, the implementation has to waste space retaining that info when a function is compiled. Related to that feature is a function called ed for editing a function with a resident editor. Compiled Lisps that don't retain the function source code are definitely not homoiconic. That source-code-being-data property of Lisp with application-defined code manipulation before code is interpreted or compiled is something other than "homoiconic".
    - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
      Your opinion is fringe. Here is a quote from wiki: "In computer programming, homoiconicity (from the Greek words homo- meaning "the same" and icon meaning "representation") is a property of some programming languages. A language is homoiconic if a program written in it can be manipulated as data using the language.[1] The program's internal representation can thus be inferred just by reading the program itself. This property is often summarized by saying that the language treats code as data."
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    - lispm 3y ago
      Wikipedia cites a TRAC article: "At any time, it should be possible to display program or procedural information in the same form as the TRAC processor will act upon it during its execution. It is desirable that the internal character code representation be identical to, or very similar to, the external code representation. In the present TRAC implementation, the internal character representation is based upon ASCII. Because TRAC procedures and text have the same representation inside and outside the processor, the term homoiconic is applicable, from homo meaning the same, and icon meaning representation." > "it should be possible to display program or procedural information in the same form as the TRAC processor will act upon it during its execution" This means that interpreted Lisp source is "homoiconic". Compiled Lisp code with stored source code would not be "homoiconic".

pjmlp 3y ago

So I decided to update my decades old outdated knowledge about GNU Smalltalk. Last update in documentation, 2017. The JIT compiler seems to still be experimental, and no new releases in 8 years. It seems that in both cases, for a Lisp like experience, we are better off using SBCL or similar.

SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
Smalltalk is homoiconic, like lisp. TCL is not, just pretends to be.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  I used all those three languages in production, and know quite well the differences. You're point is completely irrelevant to the usefulness of GNU Smalltalk.
  - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
    I recommend you to reread the thread. I said that Smalltalk is far closer to Lisp than TCL, not if it more useful or less than either.
- lispm 3y ago
  Interesting. So we can compute source code! What's the equivalent of this: take code and double the numbers in it, then execute it: CL-USER 33 > (eval (mapcar (lambda (atom) (typecase atom (number (expt atom 2)) (t atom))) (cons '* (list 3 4 5)))) 3600
- kazinator 3y ago
  Homoiconic refers to parts of a program (such as functions) being stored in source code form (or some tokenized form close to source code). This was coined in the TRAC project in the 1960's. homo = same, icon = representation. The POSIX shell is homoiconic because you can list the function definitions, and copy and paste them to redefine them. (Similarly to how the TRAC language supposedly allowed definitions to be recalled an edited.) ANSI Common Lisp has an optional feature for obtaining the definition of a function in textual form. For that to work, the implementation has to waste space retaining that info when a function is compiled. Related to that feature is a function called ed for editing a function with a resident editor. Compiled Lisps that don't retain the function source code are definitely not homoiconic. That source-code-being-data property of Lisp with application-defined code manipulation before code is interpreted or compiled is something other than "homoiconic".
  - SomeoneFromCA 3y ago
    Your opinion is fringe. Here is a quote from wiki: "In computer programming, homoiconicity (from the Greek words homo- meaning "the same" and icon meaning "representation") is a property of some programming languages. A language is homoiconic if a program written in it can be manipulated as data using the language.[1] The program's internal representation can thus be inferred just by reading the program itself. This property is often summarized by saying that the language treats code as data."
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - lispm 3y ago
    Wikipedia cites a TRAC article: "At any time, it should be possible to display program or procedural information in the same form as the TRAC processor will act upon it during its execution. It is desirable that the internal character code representation be identical to, or very similar to, the external code representation. In the present TRAC implementation, the internal character representation is based upon ASCII. Because TRAC procedures and text have the same representation inside and outside the processor, the term homoiconic is applicable, from homo meaning the same, and icon meaning representation." > "it should be possible to display program or procedural information in the same form as the TRAC processor will act upon it during its execution" This means that interpreted Lisp source is "homoiconic". Compiled Lisp code with stored source code would not be "homoiconic".