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Are people going to be less lazy and use a compiled language like C, C++, Rust instead of Javascript for desktop and mobile apps? Are companies going to pay fo

Are people going to be less lazy and use a compiled language like C, C++, Rust instead of Javascript for desktop and mobile apps? Are companies going to pay for that development?

trevyn 3y ago
Nobody really cares. I’m not usually the type to complain about input lag; most modern apps on a recent machine are snappy enough for me. But I’ve been messing around with egui lately, and it just feels… fast. It’s weird. But nobody really cares.
icemelt8 3y ago
unlikely
poisonborz 3y ago
Who will develop a cross-platform UI system as capable, flexible and well-embedded as HTML/CSS and as responsive as native UI? Google did its shot with Flutter, it's not exactly eating the world. The performance issue will long be solved before somebody comes up with a capable contender.
- bandergirl 3y ago
  > The performance issue will long be solved before somebody comes up with a capable contender. I wish I had such a positive outlook. New highways are built and they are quickly filled with traffic.
- ogoffart 3y ago
  Trying to do that with Slint: https://slint.dev https://slint.dev No need to use compiled language like C++, still possible to use a language like JavaScript/TypeScript, just no need to bring a browser.
- mamcx 3y ago
  Flutter suffer, badly, to be tied to a specific lang. If it where an API directly usable by any lang, then it could fly further.
- folago 3y ago
  There is https://gioui.org/ https://gioui.org/ for Go.
  - pc86 3y ago
    This doesn't seem to cover a single point in the comment you're replying to.
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > Who will develop a cross-platform UI system as capable, flexible and well-embedded as HTML/CSS and as responsive as native UI? History shows that you can only choose one. If you're not using the platform's native UI stack, you're going to end up with a slower, less capable solution that will look and feel foreign and clumsy in comparison. What the industry really needs is a React Native-type solution that isn't tied specifically to React.
- gcanko 3y ago
  Isn't this what WebAssembly or Rust is used for? IIRC Figma's web app uses WebAssembly and I prefer that way more than the native app.
novagameco 3y ago
Maybe when native languages manage to come up with a single good UI framework
- olliej 3y ago
  Macs have Cocoa which is a good UI framework. There's your single good UI framework for them. iOS has UIKit, which is a good UI framework. There's your single good UI framework for them. Linux has GTK and Qt, though I'm not sure which one is in vogue these days, but both of which seemed fine when I used them in the past. etc But it sounds like what you're actually saying is "I only want one OS to exist". Every OS has its own UI API, because every perform has different UI design language, UI interaction, and UI behavior. You cannot make one UI that is good on every platform because every platform is different and those differences are what make people prefer one over the others, but a single UI is (as Java and Chrome wrappers demonstrate) going to produce a bunch of exceedingly mediocre apps that fail numerous basic UI tools on their respective platforms. If you want a cross platform apps you have cross platform core logic, and per platform UI. If you want a single UI framework across platforms, it cannot be good, and it will inherently at best produce the kind of mediocrity we get with chrome apps, or you only have a single platform and have the same UI toolkit across all of them: desktop, phone, tablet, etc. I'm going to guess that's going to produce a fairly terrible UX on at least one of the options if it's good on others, or maybe it will just be mediocre across the board.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - novagameco 3y ago
    Then nobody will go back to making native apps
    - olliej 3y ago
      Yes, the problem is easy crappy apps are cheaper for developers even if they're worse for users. The alternative "single UI framework" is "everyone must run the same OS". As long as people keep buying/using crapware apps that's all that will happen. The fact that so many people are ok with that mediocrity is depressing, but that they do so while then complaining about things being slow is actively annoying.
jorvi 3y ago
Gnome is 120FPS butter on Javascript. As far as I know, Gnome profiled a bunch of their biggest UI slowdowns and none of them would have been (much) improved on native. Bad code is bad, JavaScript isn’t the main culprit here.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  This. I've wrote plenty of (very) high performance code using a Javascript/WebGL combo. Most people bitching about JS are not even good coders to start with.
  - beebeepka 3y ago
    Truth to be told, there's a lot of terrible js out there, and some of it is mine.
    - taftster 3y ago
      At least you're honest about it. I don't have any JS out there period, so your terrible JS is much better than I could have done.
      - beebeepka 3y ago
        sometimes I do think about my first contributions. how i could have done this and that completely differently. kind of like going to first grade again with what you know (and are) as an adult.
  - redeeman 3y ago
    yeah but look at freaking chromium, 3.2GB compressed archive. That is absolutely insane, and cannot be defended in ANY WAY. look at what they started with with webkit? chromium is an abomination the likes of which definitively proves there is no god, or that god HATES humanity, as god would have 100% for sure schmited us all down for the atrocity that is chromium.
    - 3y ago
jwells89 3y ago
One doesn’t even need to go as far as C++ or Rust… many best in class Mac apps were written in Objective-C (which is notably slower than either) and were plenty responsive on single core PowerPC G3s, G4s, and G5s. I think a great deal of the issue comes down to bloated frameworks, bad application code, and a prevalent attitude of nonchalance towards optimization that compounds with dev machines being powerful enough to mask most performance problems.
- jbclements 3y ago
  I think it's probably more productive to think of this in economic terms; "nonchalance toward optimization" <-> "I can write this code in an hour instead of three hours". And, from a company's perspective: "I can get this code running acceptably at 1/3 the dev cost".
  - jwells89 3y ago
    Surely we’ve crossed a threshold of diminishing returns on this by now though? There has to be a point where the gains in convenience/DX/speed are too tiny for the costs involved and the weight of the average app ceases to grow.

Are people going to be less lazy and use a compiled language like C, C++, Rust instead of Javascript for desktop and mobile apps? Are companies going to pay for that development?

trevyn 3y ago

Nobody really cares. I’m not usually the type to complain about input lag; most modern apps on a recent machine are snappy enough for me. But I’ve been messing around with egui lately, and it just feels… fast. It’s weird. But nobody really cares.

icemelt8 3y ago

unlikely

poisonborz 3y ago

Who will develop a cross-platform UI system as capable, flexible and well-embedded as HTML/CSS and as responsive as native UI? Google did its shot with Flutter, it's not exactly eating the world. The performance issue will long be solved before somebody comes up with a capable contender.

bandergirl 3y ago
> The performance issue will long be solved before somebody comes up with a capable contender. I wish I had such a positive outlook. New highways are built and they are quickly filled with traffic.
ogoffart 3y ago
Trying to do that with Slint: https://slint.dev https://slint.dev No need to use compiled language like C++, still possible to use a language like JavaScript/TypeScript, just no need to bring a browser.
mamcx 3y ago
Flutter suffer, badly, to be tied to a specific lang. If it where an API directly usable by any lang, then it could fly further.
folago 3y ago
There is https://gioui.org/ https://gioui.org/ for Go.
- pc86 3y ago
  This doesn't seem to cover a single point in the comment you're replying to.
CharlesW 3y ago
> Who will develop a cross-platform UI system as capable, flexible and well-embedded as HTML/CSS and as responsive as native UI? History shows that you can only choose one. If you're not using the platform's native UI stack, you're going to end up with a slower, less capable solution that will look and feel foreign and clumsy in comparison. What the industry really needs is a React Native-type solution that isn't tied specifically to React.
gcanko 3y ago
Isn't this what WebAssembly or Rust is used for? IIRC Figma's web app uses WebAssembly and I prefer that way more than the native app.

novagameco 3y ago

Maybe when native languages manage to come up with a single good UI framework

olliej 3y ago
Macs have Cocoa which is a good UI framework. There's your single good UI framework for them. iOS has UIKit, which is a good UI framework. There's your single good UI framework for them. Linux has GTK and Qt, though I'm not sure which one is in vogue these days, but both of which seemed fine when I used them in the past. etc But it sounds like what you're actually saying is "I only want one OS to exist". Every OS has its own UI API, because every perform has different UI design language, UI interaction, and UI behavior. You cannot make one UI that is good on every platform because every platform is different and those differences are what make people prefer one over the others, but a single UI is (as Java and Chrome wrappers demonstrate) going to produce a bunch of exceedingly mediocre apps that fail numerous basic UI tools on their respective platforms. If you want a cross platform apps you have cross platform core logic, and per platform UI. If you want a single UI framework across platforms, it cannot be good, and it will inherently at best produce the kind of mediocrity we get with chrome apps, or you only have a single platform and have the same UI toolkit across all of them: desktop, phone, tablet, etc. I'm going to guess that's going to produce a fairly terrible UX on at least one of the options if it's good on others, or maybe it will just be mediocre across the board.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- novagameco 3y ago
  Then nobody will go back to making native apps
  - olliej 3y ago
    Yes, the problem is easy crappy apps are cheaper for developers even if they're worse for users. The alternative "single UI framework" is "everyone must run the same OS". As long as people keep buying/using crapware apps that's all that will happen. The fact that so many people are ok with that mediocrity is depressing, but that they do so while then complaining about things being slow is actively annoying.

jorvi 3y ago

Gnome is 120FPS butter on Javascript. As far as I know, Gnome profiled a bunch of their biggest UI slowdowns and none of them would have been (much) improved on native. Bad code is bad, JavaScript isn’t the main culprit here.

moralestapia 3y ago
This. I've wrote plenty of (very) high performance code using a Javascript/WebGL combo. Most people bitching about JS are not even good coders to start with.
- beebeepka 3y ago
  Truth to be told, there's a lot of terrible js out there, and some of it is mine.
  - taftster 3y ago
    At least you're honest about it. I don't have any JS out there period, so your terrible JS is much better than I could have done.
    - beebeepka 3y ago
      sometimes I do think about my first contributions. how i could have done this and that completely differently. kind of like going to first grade again with what you know (and are) as an adult.
- redeeman 3y ago
  yeah but look at freaking chromium, 3.2GB compressed archive. That is absolutely insane, and cannot be defended in ANY WAY. look at what they started with with webkit? chromium is an abomination the likes of which definitively proves there is no god, or that god HATES humanity, as god would have 100% for sure schmited us all down for the atrocity that is chromium.
  - 3y ago

jwells89 3y ago

One doesn’t even need to go as far as C++ or Rust… many best in class Mac apps were written in Objective-C (which is notably slower than either) and were plenty responsive on single core PowerPC G3s, G4s, and G5s. I think a great deal of the issue comes down to bloated frameworks, bad application code, and a prevalent attitude of nonchalance towards optimization that compounds with dev machines being powerful enough to mask most performance problems.

jbclements 3y ago
I think it's probably more productive to think of this in economic terms; "nonchalance toward optimization" <-> "I can write this code in an hour instead of three hours". And, from a company's perspective: "I can get this code running acceptably at 1/3 the dev cost".
- jwells89 3y ago
  Surely we’ve crossed a threshold of diminishing returns on this by now though? There has to be a point where the gains in convenience/DX/speed are too tiny for the costs involved and the weight of the average app ceases to grow.