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Again wit this nonsense ? You are not engaging with the facts. The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas, they are literally losing soldiers daily in

Again wit this nonsense ? You are not engaging with the facts. The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas, they are literally losing soldiers daily in battles witn Hamas, it’s absurd to deny this People have a right to fight against oppression is a red herring because you are unable to engage with actual facts The actual fact is Israel left Gaza completely. At which point Gazans had a choice. And they chose Hamas which proceeded to continuously attack Israel and fire rockets at it, culminating in October 7th its impossible to deny this simple reality. And this simple reality means Israel has no choice but to defeat Hamas militarily once and for all, which it’s now attempting to do There is no Hamas in the West Bank? This is false, as anyone with a google account can verify. Hamas doesn’t fully control the West Bank, but of course it has a presence there along with other terrorist groups, especially in certain cities like Jenin If you want to understand this conflict, you have to understand the facts first

johnnyworker 3y ago
> There is no Hamas in the West Bank > The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas [..] because you are unable to engage with actual facts
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  there is Hamas in the West Bank. That statement is simply false, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a strong presence in the West Bank. https://acleddata.com/2023/12/14/the-resurgence-of-armed-groups-in-the-west-bank-and-their-connections-to-gaza/ https://acleddata.com/2023/12/14/the-resurgence-of-armed-gro... It's true that Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not fully control the West Bank. But once someone says "there is no Hamas in the West Bank", that's a dead giveaway the person is talking either in bad faith or is simply clueless
mandmandam 3y ago
Bad faith discussions are discouraged here. Bad faith includes thing like refusing to engage with reality, and calling horrific lies that amount to genocide denial "actual facts", or calling a fact based argument "nonsense". > The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas, they are literally losing soldiers daily in battles witn Hamas, it’s absurd to deny this I don't know how this point makes any logical sense to you, unless you're arguing in bad faith. Israel losing soldiers doesn't mean anything about Israel "going after Hamas". They'd lose soldiers if their goal was total destruction and making Palestinian lives so miserable and unlivable that they move "voluntarily" as expressed by Israel's own Minister for Communications. > If you want to understand this conflict, you have to understand the facts first It's a genocide. Lawyers for the top court in the world have made a profoundly well sourced and factual argument on this. If you have any respect whatsoever for truth and reality, I urge you to watch or read the arguments presented before saying things like "you have to understand the facts".
- vasilipupkin 3y ago
  >I don't know how this point makes any logical sense to you, unless you're arguing in bad faith. Of course it makes sense. How can you argue that Israel is not going after Hamas if Israeli solders on the ground are battling Hamas and dying in those battles? That is literally going after Hamas. Why would they lose solders if their goal was total destruction? They could just nuke Gaza if that was their goal or simply continue to bomb it into smithereens. Why would they put their own soldiers in harm's way? >Jt's a genocide No, it is not. Lawyers for one side made an argument and lawyers for the other side made an argument but you are for some reason unable to engage with the substance of that argument >If you have any respect whatsoever for truth and reality, I urge you to watch or read the arguments presented before saying things like "you have to understand the facts". Yes, you have to understand facts. A very simple fact is that Israel left Gaza in 2005 and it's security worsened as a result it did not improve. Why? Because Hamas is an organization whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel and kill Israelis. That is why this war is going on right now, and you have to engage with this reality to have any hope of making any sense. https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/ https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-re...
  - runarberg 3y ago
    FWIW Israel did not denied the atrocities—nor any wrongdoings—at the trials. The only thing they have denied is the genocidal intent—specifically, the “special intent” required for the crime of genocide. Israels defense mostly revolves around lack of jurisdiction (which even the Brookings institution says is nonsense), that is the UN has no authority to rule over matters in Gaza, and that the atrocities committed by the IDF in GAZA—which they don’t deny—are justified (which they are demonstrably not). So basically the only real question for the court is whether Israel has the intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a group. You probably don’t think so, but I, OP, the South African legal team, the Governments of Bangladesh, Turkey, Jordan, Pakistan, Brazil, Colombia, etc. and several human rights, NPO, and activist organizations all think that Israel does in fact intent to destroy Palestinians of Gaza as a group. But regardless of that, even if the court fails to prove that Israel has the intent to destroy Palestinians of Gaza as a group, then—as none of the atrocities are being denied—we are basically left with that there is some reasonable probability that these atrocities were committed by carelessness. As a human being, you must see that that is not OK, and not a defensible behavior.

johnnyworker 3y ago

> There is no Hamas in the West Bank > The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas [..] because you are unable to engage with actual facts

vasilipupkin 3y ago
there is Hamas in the West Bank. That statement is simply false, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a strong presence in the West Bank. https://acleddata.com/2023/12/14/the-resurgence-of-armed-groups-in-the-west-bank-and-their-connections-to-gaza/ https://acleddata.com/2023/12/14/the-resurgence-of-armed-gro... It's true that Hamas and Islamic Jihad do not fully control the West Bank. But once someone says "there is no Hamas in the West Bank", that's a dead giveaway the person is talking either in bad faith or is simply clueless

mandmandam 3y ago

Bad faith discussions are discouraged here. Bad faith includes thing like refusing to engage with reality, and calling horrific lies that amount to genocide denial "actual facts", or calling a fact based argument "nonsense". > The fact is of course Israel is going after Hamas, they are literally losing soldiers daily in battles witn Hamas, it’s absurd to deny this I don't know how this point makes any logical sense to you, unless you're arguing in bad faith. Israel losing soldiers doesn't mean anything about Israel "going after Hamas". They'd lose soldiers if their goal was total destruction and making Palestinian lives so miserable and unlivable that they move "voluntarily" as expressed by Israel's own Minister for Communications. > If you want to understand this conflict, you have to understand the facts first It's a genocide. Lawyers for the top court in the world have made a profoundly well sourced and factual argument on this. If you have any respect whatsoever for truth and reality, I urge you to watch or read the arguments presented before saying things like "you have to understand the facts".

vasilipupkin 3y ago
>I don't know how this point makes any logical sense to you, unless you're arguing in bad faith. Of course it makes sense. How can you argue that Israel is not going after Hamas if Israeli solders on the ground are battling Hamas and dying in those battles? That is literally going after Hamas. Why would they lose solders if their goal was total destruction? They could just nuke Gaza if that was their goal or simply continue to bomb it into smithereens. Why would they put their own soldiers in harm's way? >Jt's a genocide No, it is not. Lawyers for one side made an argument and lawyers for the other side made an argument but you are for some reason unable to engage with the substance of that argument >If you have any respect whatsoever for truth and reality, I urge you to watch or read the arguments presented before saying things like "you have to understand the facts". Yes, you have to understand facts. A very simple fact is that Israel left Gaza in 2005 and it's security worsened as a result it did not improve. Why? Because Hamas is an organization whose sole purpose is to destroy Israel and kill Israelis. That is why this war is going on right now, and you have to engage with this reality to have any hope of making any sense. https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel-attacks-again-and-again-until-its-destroyed/ https://nypost.com/2023/11/01/news/hamas-official-vows-to-re...
- runarberg 3y ago
  FWIW Israel did not denied the atrocities—nor any wrongdoings—at the trials. The only thing they have denied is the genocidal intent—specifically, the “special intent” required for the crime of genocide. Israels defense mostly revolves around lack of jurisdiction (which even the Brookings institution says is nonsense), that is the UN has no authority to rule over matters in Gaza, and that the atrocities committed by the IDF in GAZA—which they don’t deny—are justified (which they are demonstrably not). So basically the only real question for the court is whether Israel has the intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as a group. You probably don’t think so, but I, OP, the South African legal team, the Governments of Bangladesh, Turkey, Jordan, Pakistan, Brazil, Colombia, etc. and several human rights, NPO, and activist organizations all think that Israel does in fact intent to destroy Palestinians of Gaza as a group. But regardless of that, even if the court fails to prove that Israel has the intent to destroy Palestinians of Gaza as a group, then—as none of the atrocities are being denied—we are basically left with that there is some reasonable probability that these atrocities were committed by carelessness. As a human being, you must see that that is not OK, and not a defensible behavior.