5 ms·

Gotcha, do you have any numbers to demonstrate that? For example, I did a quick google search, and between 2012 to 2023 12,497 golden visas were granted in Por

by bwb 3y ago

Gotcha, do you have any numbers to demonstrate that? For example, I did a quick google search, and between 2012 to 2023 12,497 golden visas were granted in Portugal. It is highly unlikely that 12,000 families coming to Portugal is causing this? Right? Or what am I missing here? It seems like a "blame the immigrant" type thing when in fact it is a failure to build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore. Do you know what the D7 visa numbers are? Brazilian immigrants are also coming on other types of visas. One of my wife's doctors moved from Brazil and is one of the best rehab doctors we've ever had.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
> build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore What makes you say Austria builds enough housing? Have you looked at buying property prices in Austria? Way too high for the average income.
- bwb 3y ago
  Yep, they have done an amazing job: https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-european-style-public-housing-could-help-solve-the-affordability-crisis https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-europ... https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-architecture-austria-stigma/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-archit... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-housing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-ho...
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    You're articles are only talking about the Vienese public housing market, not the Austiran for-sale real estate market. Very different things.
    - bwb 3y ago
      That is true. But Vienna is the economic powerhouse and hugely important piece of that, especially given that region is ~25% of population.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Vienna != Austria same how London != UK, Berlin != Germany, Tokyo != Japan, Washington != US. If you only apply a succesful policy to one big city while ignoring the others, you can't claim you fixed national housing in the whole country, if the rest of the cities are still left behind. Not much use if a policy only applies to a subset of the population of the capital city, and can't scale to the whole country so the whole populaiton can benefit from it, leaving >75% of the population out for themselves.
        bwb 3y ago
        Hard to say... Mostly when we talk about housing, we are talking about cities, since that is where economic opportunity is. So studying Singapore and Vienna makes sense and are models to look at replicating in other cities. No reason to ignore a possible solution because a city level solution doesn't work in rural Austria... or even "less dense urban austria". I am not an expert, but it is clear Vienna and Singapore have some models that are working when the rest of the cities in the developed world are struggling.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Austria has many more cities than just Vienna and rural countryside, it's not just one city-country like Singapore. You're intentionally omitting several other large economically strong cities within Austria that do not have the Vienna housing model adopted and are instead like the rest of the world, with a housing model based around private renting and private ownership instead of the large public housing model. Why is that? And why aren't other cities in the world that are struggling trying to replciate Vienna's model if it's so good and so easy? /rethorical question Think about how and when the Vienese housing model started, and let it sink in on why it most likely it's adoption wouldn't work in the world of today in a democratic country with a capitlistic economy based on private property ownership.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  They build plenty of housing. It's rented, but plentiful. (That is not in conflict with a properties-for-sale market that is very hard to afford for regular people.)
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >. It's rented, but plentiful. Will Austrians also be able to afford to pay the market rent adjusted for inflation on their measley pensions in the future? >properties-for-sale market that is very hard to afford for regular people Isn't that a huge problem? I feel like being able to afford your oiwn proerty reduces the chances of old age poverty verus always being a rentoid for life.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      It's a huge problem if the rental market is underbuilt. It's not nearly as much a problem (perhaps not a problem at all) if the rental market is overbuilt. From what I hear from friends in Austria, it's not a problem.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        So you're talking about what you heard from others, not from personal experience. It's not a problem FOR THEM, right NOW, probaly because they have good paying jobs and/or also qualify for Vienna social housing, aka survivorhsip bias, but the rest of Austria doesn't have Vienna's social housing, and the private rental market is not that great as you imagine suffering from siliar issues as the rest of Europe. Also, you won't be able to afford to rent your hole life in retirement, as private market rents are indexed yearly to inflation, meaning you're vulnerable to old age poverty, something less likely to happen if you own your own property outrighht by then, which is almost impossible in Austria. Why are you choosing to ignore the for-sale property market, which IMHO is important for wealth and financial stability than being at the mercy of the rental market? The rental market is not on your side, it won't protect you.
        3y ago
forinti 3y ago
I really don't have enough numbers to single out a cause, but I have the feeling there isn't a single cause. Even if more housing were built, the job market was never really that good in Portugal, compared to central Europe. I wouldn't blame immigrants, but I would blame the government for not doing enough for young Portuguese. The average age in Portugal is quite high; just as with Italy maybe it is difficult to find dinamicity within an aging population. It could even be that this is the best option possible.
- bwb 3y ago
  What would you like the government to do if you could wave a magic wand at this problem? i.e. what can the gov do for young Portuguese here?

by bwb 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

> build enough housing like almost every country except Austria and Singapore What makes you say Austria builds enough housing? Have you looked at buying property prices in Austria? Way too high for the average income.

bwb 3y ago
Yep, they have done an amazing job: https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-european-style-public-housing-could-help-solve-the-affordability-crisis https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/02/25/809315455/how-europ... https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-architecture-austria-stigma/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vienna-social-housing-archit... https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-housing.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/23/magazine/vienna-social-ho...
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  You're articles are only talking about the Vienese public housing market, not the Austiran for-sale real estate market. Very different things.
  - bwb 3y ago
    That is true. But Vienna is the economic powerhouse and hugely important piece of that, especially given that region is ~25% of population.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Vienna != Austria same how London != UK, Berlin != Germany, Tokyo != Japan, Washington != US. If you only apply a succesful policy to one big city while ignoring the others, you can't claim you fixed national housing in the whole country, if the rest of the cities are still left behind. Not much use if a policy only applies to a subset of the population of the capital city, and can't scale to the whole country so the whole populaiton can benefit from it, leaving >75% of the population out for themselves.
      - bwb 3y ago
        Hard to say... Mostly when we talk about housing, we are talking about cities, since that is where economic opportunity is. So studying Singapore and Vienna makes sense and are models to look at replicating in other cities. No reason to ignore a possible solution because a city level solution doesn't work in rural Austria... or even "less dense urban austria". I am not an expert, but it is clear Vienna and Singapore have some models that are working when the rest of the cities in the developed world are struggling.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Austria has many more cities than just Vienna and rural countryside, it's not just one city-country like Singapore. You're intentionally omitting several other large economically strong cities within Austria that do not have the Vienna housing model adopted and are instead like the rest of the world, with a housing model based around private renting and private ownership instead of the large public housing model. Why is that? And why aren't other cities in the world that are struggling trying to replciate Vienna's model if it's so good and so easy? /rethorical question Think about how and when the Vienese housing model started, and let it sink in on why it most likely it's adoption wouldn't work in the world of today in a democratic country with a capitlistic economy based on private property ownership.
sokoloff 3y ago
They build plenty of housing. It's rented, but plentiful. (That is not in conflict with a properties-for-sale market that is very hard to afford for regular people.)
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >. It's rented, but plentiful. Will Austrians also be able to afford to pay the market rent adjusted for inflation on their measley pensions in the future? >properties-for-sale market that is very hard to afford for regular people Isn't that a huge problem? I feel like being able to afford your oiwn proerty reduces the chances of old age poverty verus always being a rentoid for life.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    It's a huge problem if the rental market is underbuilt. It's not nearly as much a problem (perhaps not a problem at all) if the rental market is overbuilt. From what I hear from friends in Austria, it's not a problem.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      So you're talking about what you heard from others, not from personal experience. It's not a problem FOR THEM, right NOW, probaly because they have good paying jobs and/or also qualify for Vienna social housing, aka survivorhsip bias, but the rest of Austria doesn't have Vienna's social housing, and the private rental market is not that great as you imagine suffering from siliar issues as the rest of Europe. Also, you won't be able to afford to rent your hole life in retirement, as private market rents are indexed yearly to inflation, meaning you're vulnerable to old age poverty, something less likely to happen if you own your own property outrighht by then, which is almost impossible in Austria. Why are you choosing to ignore the for-sale property market, which IMHO is important for wealth and financial stability than being at the mercy of the rental market? The rental market is not on your side, it won't protect you.
      - 3y ago

forinti 3y ago

I really don't have enough numbers to single out a cause, but I have the feeling there isn't a single cause. Even if more housing were built, the job market was never really that good in Portugal, compared to central Europe. I wouldn't blame immigrants, but I would blame the government for not doing enough for young Portuguese. The average age in Portugal is quite high; just as with Italy maybe it is difficult to find dinamicity within an aging population. It could even be that this is the best option possible.

bwb 3y ago
What would you like the government to do if you could wave a magic wand at this problem? i.e. what can the gov do for young Portuguese here?