4 ms·

We need smart roads. Not just smart cars. Until that happens, autonomous is impractical. You don’t want to build an autonomous system to match human error rate.

by lvl102 3y ago

We need smart roads. Not just smart cars. Until that happens, autonomous is impractical. You don’t want to build an autonomous system to match human error rate. That basically got us nowhere in the past seven years since Elon bs’d his way to selling vaporware.

nativeit 3y ago
Aaaaand we’re back to reinventing trains. There should be a name for this phenomenon. How long do tech folks discuss how to improve transportation until they attempt to reinvent trains?
- nativeit 3y ago
  Come to think of it, wouldn’t it be much more logical to automate trains first?
  - Mashimo 3y ago
    City trains are often automated[1]. Have been for decades as far as I know. Long distance or regional trains are often driving on very very old train networks. I don't know much about trains, but I guess if you would build a new train line now you could also automate it. But that is just a guess. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_train_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_train_syste...
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > we’re back to reinventing trains The term you’re looking for is armchair logistics. Trains and trucks have been competing for a long time. Autonomous trucks, even in convoys, even where freeways have RFID signs, are vastly different from trains. You don’t need to lay and maintain tracks. You’re not limited to where tracks go. You can assemble and disassemble on demand.
  - atahanacar 3y ago
    Yet you need to lay and maintain roads, you're limited to where roads and RFID signs go. You also have the added inefficiency and environmental problems of rubber-to-asphalt contact. In addition, you need to carry batteries which means even more inefficient transportation.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > you need to lay and maintain roads, you're limited to where roads and RFID signs go No, the roads and signs are already there and being maintained.
      - Toutouxc 3y ago
        You could probably save a lot on maintenance if you didn’t have trucks driving on the roads.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ZeroSolstice 3y ago
  Stop being moronic. Different transportation mediums exist for a reason. Trains in the US are currently suited for long haul transportation at which they excel at. We already tried running rail lines to warehouses and distribution centers and determined trucks were a better form of last mile transportation. Do you think that no one at UPS, FedEx, Walmart or Amazon has ever looked at how much more efficient or what cost saving they could get if "only they had a rail line to their warehouses verse a road?" What the discussion is looking at is making a micro improvement to what we have already tested as the better method of delivery, trucks in this case. Where the issue is coming about is we are trying to build autonomous actions into a hybrid roadway verse dedicating a portion of a roadway to autonomous driving. The article states the following: "Trucking was supposed to be the ideal first application of autonomous driving. Freeways contain predictable, highly structured driving scenarios" When sharing the road with human drivers this statement makes no sense as all. Vehicle's are their own entities with no connection to each other outside of the road, signage and defined lanes.
- yodon 3y ago
  >Aaaaand we’re back to reinventing trains. There should be a name for this phenomenon https://xkcd.com/2314/ https://xkcd.com/2314/
ZeroSolstice 3y ago
Correct this is the best path forward. Night time is typically when there is less traffic and we should be able to at least utilize that for autonomous transportation between distribution centers. Then slowing keep upping the advancement as roads are repaired, replaced, etc. If you build a smart road for lets say just trucking, now you can map out the best places for distribution centers, similar to what UPS, Fedex figured out for air transportation and packages. Its a bit ridiculous that in 2024 we have all these apps that tell you about accidents and obstructions but none that actually help re-direct traffic in a meaningful way. You have to hedge your bets on any "suggested" better route. With smart roads department of transportation could get real analyze on crowded intersections, best place for future on/off ramps, access roads, etc. Traffic congestion and planning is usually an after thought when housing developments go up and then its a catch-up game.
- lvl102 3y ago
  One could argue traffic light was the first “smart” feature added to roads. Why do we continue to have costly high way accidents in 2024? Massive pile ups can be minimized and even avoided.
  - ZeroSolstice 3y ago
    Unfortunately we didn't expand upon thinking about multiple intersections and their traffic lights being a network. We have fixed programming of lighting schedules that don't change unless a traffic survey is done. In most cases these are limited in their occurrences which doesn't reflect the dynamics of driving. As an example I'm sure most people don't mind moving as long as they feel like they are getting somewhere. With the dynamics of traffic you could re-direct people to a different on/off ramp even though its further away to keep the same rate of speed for everyone. Maybe you send people down a different or parallel road for longer because it will get them there at the same time verses stop-and-go traffic because everyone wants to use the same or well-known road.

by lvl102 3y ago

nativeit 3y ago

Aaaaand we’re back to reinventing trains. There should be a name for this phenomenon. How long do tech folks discuss how to improve transportation until they attempt to reinvent trains?

nativeit 3y ago
Come to think of it, wouldn’t it be much more logical to automate trains first?
- Mashimo 3y ago
  City trains are often automated[1]. Have been for decades as far as I know. Long distance or regional trains are often driving on very very old train networks. I don't know much about trains, but I guess if you would build a new train line now you could also automate it. But that is just a guess. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_train_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_train_syste...
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> we’re back to reinventing trains The term you’re looking for is armchair logistics. Trains and trucks have been competing for a long time. Autonomous trucks, even in convoys, even where freeways have RFID signs, are vastly different from trains. You don’t need to lay and maintain tracks. You’re not limited to where tracks go. You can assemble and disassemble on demand.
- atahanacar 3y ago
  Yet you need to lay and maintain roads, you're limited to where roads and RFID signs go. You also have the added inefficiency and environmental problems of rubber-to-asphalt contact. In addition, you need to carry batteries which means even more inefficient transportation.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > you need to lay and maintain roads, you're limited to where roads and RFID signs go No, the roads and signs are already there and being maintained.
    - Toutouxc 3y ago
      You could probably save a lot on maintenance if you didn’t have trucks driving on the roads.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ZeroSolstice 3y ago
Stop being moronic. Different transportation mediums exist for a reason. Trains in the US are currently suited for long haul transportation at which they excel at. We already tried running rail lines to warehouses and distribution centers and determined trucks were a better form of last mile transportation. Do you think that no one at UPS, FedEx, Walmart or Amazon has ever looked at how much more efficient or what cost saving they could get if "only they had a rail line to their warehouses verse a road?" What the discussion is looking at is making a micro improvement to what we have already tested as the better method of delivery, trucks in this case. Where the issue is coming about is we are trying to build autonomous actions into a hybrid roadway verse dedicating a portion of a roadway to autonomous driving. The article states the following: "Trucking was supposed to be the ideal first application of autonomous driving. Freeways contain predictable, highly structured driving scenarios" When sharing the road with human drivers this statement makes no sense as all. Vehicle's are their own entities with no connection to each other outside of the road, signage and defined lanes.
yodon 3y ago
>Aaaaand we’re back to reinventing trains. There should be a name for this phenomenon https://xkcd.com/2314/ https://xkcd.com/2314/

ZeroSolstice 3y ago

Correct this is the best path forward. Night time is typically when there is less traffic and we should be able to at least utilize that for autonomous transportation between distribution centers. Then slowing keep upping the advancement as roads are repaired, replaced, etc. If you build a smart road for lets say just trucking, now you can map out the best places for distribution centers, similar to what UPS, Fedex figured out for air transportation and packages. Its a bit ridiculous that in 2024 we have all these apps that tell you about accidents and obstructions but none that actually help re-direct traffic in a meaningful way. You have to hedge your bets on any "suggested" better route. With smart roads department of transportation could get real analyze on crowded intersections, best place for future on/off ramps, access roads, etc. Traffic congestion and planning is usually an after thought when housing developments go up and then its a catch-up game.

lvl102 3y ago
One could argue traffic light was the first “smart” feature added to roads. Why do we continue to have costly high way accidents in 2024? Massive pile ups can be minimized and even avoided.
- ZeroSolstice 3y ago
  Unfortunately we didn't expand upon thinking about multiple intersections and their traffic lights being a network. We have fixed programming of lighting schedules that don't change unless a traffic survey is done. In most cases these are limited in their occurrences which doesn't reflect the dynamics of driving. As an example I'm sure most people don't mind moving as long as they feel like they are getting somewhere. With the dynamics of traffic you could re-direct people to a different on/off ramp even though its further away to keep the same rate of speed for everyone. Maybe you send people down a different or parallel road for longer because it will get them there at the same time verses stop-and-go traffic because everyone wants to use the same or well-known road.